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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Announcement Protocol (Scott G. Miller)
2. Re: Announcement Protocol (Scott G. Miller)
3. Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark) (Scott G. Miller)
4. Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark) (Scott G. Miller)
5. Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark) (Mr.Bad)
6. Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark) (Adam Langley)
7. Re: Aardvark (Chris Anderson)
8. Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark) (Sebastian Spaeth)
9. Re: Announcement Protocol (Oskar Sandberg)
10. Re: List gone quiet (Gianni Johansson)
11. Re: Announcement Protocol (Chris Anderson)
12. Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark) (Oskar Sandberg)
13. Re: List gone quiet (Mr.Bad)
--__--__--
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 11:35:43 -0500
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] Announcement Protocol
From: "Scott G. Miller" <scgmi...@indiana.edu>
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
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On Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 10:08:56AM -0500, Chris Anderson wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Feb 2001, Ruediger Kapitza wrote:
>=20
> > > On Fri, 2 Feb 2001, Scott G. Miller wrote:
> > >
> > > Thats not a good idea. You don't want any specific node to
> > > control the keyspace assigned to Alice. More importantly, the
> > > entire point is to create random links in the network when adding
> > > a new node. Simulations show this as increasing the reliability
> > > of Freenet routing by 20-30% over inform. Allowing Alice to
> > > choose nodes already close to her trusted friends would be equal
> > > or worse than inform.
>=20
> Hmm. The 20-30% number is interesting, how did you arrive at that?
Simulations. Number of successful requests vs total requests.
>=20
> I don't see the difference between Alice choosing the routes and
> Bob1..BobN choosing the routes. Anyway, can't Alice do this with the
> proposed protocol by setting the htl of the Announcement to 1 and
> messaging Bob2..BobN herself? It seems that this is a Freenet
> crawling protocol. I do thing that the inform mechanism is producing
> a loosely connected network and should be replaced.
Think hard. All the references Bob1 has are linked to him. If alice
chooses only amongst those nodes, then she doesnt show herself to much of
the network at all, which defeats the purpose.
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 11:39:28 -0500
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] Announcement Protocol
From: "Scott G. Miller" <scgmi...@indiana.edu>
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
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> The second point is true.=20
>=20
> This leaves still the point that Bob2 can choose the route if he knowes
> some nodes which belong like him to an evil party. Is this really a
> problem? Why not? What happens if Alice has 30 node addresses and 29 are
> from some kind of evil party?
Yeah its a problem, but the odds are 1 in the number of references in
Bob1's store. And if Alice is really really worried, she does it twice,
which doubles the improbability.
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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 11:41:43 -0500
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark)
From: "Scott G. Miller" <scgmi...@indiana.edu>
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
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On Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 11:01:36PM -0500, Peter Todd wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Feb 2001, you wrote:
> > According to www.octayne.com, there are 100 working Freenet nodes at
> > least (undoubtedly many more since the limit is 100 nodes).
>=20
> How many of those Freenet nodes are *really* working? Far, far lower
> I suspect given that my node, which does get well established in the
> network, rarely has references to more then 3 nodes at a time. Even
> if I force a load of a pile of references through nodes.config it
> takes only an hour or two before it weeds out %95 of the nodes.
All of them. The inform script verfies that they are up every time it
produces them in a list.
Scott
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Message: 4
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 11:42:50 -0500
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark)
From: "Scott G. Miller" <scgmi...@indiana.edu>
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
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>=20
> It would be interesting to see what the exception that causes the removal
> is. Are we failing to connect (maybe we need to increase the connect
> timeout, our arbitrary cutoff after 5 seconds when I believe the TCP says
> two minutes is somewhat shaky), are we failing to get responses back
> from nodes we send to, or is the authentication not working, or what? =20
Like I've said many times before, its too damned harsh to remove a node
from the datastore for failing to connect once. Freenet should be able to
tolerate a node disappearing for an hour or two now and then. I really
think we should implement the decayed contact heuristic.
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Message: 5
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark)
From: Mr.Bad <mr....@pigdog.org>
Organization: Pigdog Journal
Date: 03 Feb 2001 08:55:37 -0800
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
>>>>> "OS" == Oskar Sandberg <md98-osa at nada.kth.se> writes:
OS> And for people who talk to try to have a clue what they are
OS> talking about...
Hey, Oskar: there's only one Oskar. If you're going to do this work
and have other people help out, you're going to deal with a lot of
people who don't know as much about it as you do.
If I'm the worst you have to deal with, you'll be pretty lucky.
~Mr. Bad
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
/\____/\ Mr. Bad <mr.bad at pigdog.org>
\ / Pigdog Journal | http://pigdog.org/ | *Stay*Real*Bad*
| (X \x)
( ((**) "If it's not bad, don't do it.
\ <vvv> If it's not crazy, don't say it." - Ben Franklin
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--__--__--
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 17:23:27 +0000
From: Adam Langley <a...@linuxpower.org>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark)
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
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On Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 11:42:50AM -0500, Scott G. Miller wrote:
> Like I've said many times before, its too damned harsh to remove a node
> from the datastore for failing to connect once. Freenet should be able to
> tolerate a node disappearing for an hour or two now and then. I really
> think we should implement the decayed contact heuristic.
=20
I already have that:
1) If you fail to connect ignore the node for time times[1]
2) The next time after times[1] you want to connect - you try again
3) If that fails, ignore the node for times[2] - goto 2 (but with
times[2])
4) If you run out of times[], drop the node (and thus all references
to the node)
4) If sucessful, the node is restored to full status
times =3D {
10 minutes,
1 hr,
6 hrs,
1 day,
3 days
};
AGL
--=20
Join in the new game that's sweeping the country. It's called "Bureaucracy=
". Everybody stands in a circle. The first person to do anything loses.
--/04w6evG8XlLl3ft
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--__--__--
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 12:17:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Chris Anderson <chris...@charm.net>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
On Fri, 2 Feb 2001, Scott G. Miller wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 10:08:14AM -0500, Chris Anderson wrote:
>
> > If KSK's are so evil as to give the impression that they are a
> > stable way of adding content to freenet, why not change their
> > behavior... Instead of propagating the old KSK value when a
> > collision happens, propagate the new value. For example, if I
> > insert my KSK at robots.txt, it will overwrite any robots.txt that
> > already exists instead of propagating the existing one.
>
> How the fuck would that help? Besides completely remove any
> smidgen of usefulness they do have.
They seem redundent at the moment. I could use an SSK with a ascii
derived private key for the same thing as a KSK. A KSK that
overwrites other KSKs is like a freenet shout or an advertisement.
--__--__--
Message: 8
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 18:21:44 +0100
From: Sebastian Spaeth <sebast...@sspaeth.de>
Organization: University of =?iso-8859-1?Q?Link=F6ping?=
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark)
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
"Scott G. Miller" wrote:
> > It would be interesting to see what the exception that causes the removal
> > is. Are we failing to connect (maybe we need to increase the connect
> > timeout, our arbitrary cutoff after 5 seconds when I believe the TCP says
> > two minutes is somewhat shaky), are we failing to get responses back
> > from nodes we send to, or is the authentication not working, or what?
>
> Like I've said many times before, its too damned harsh to remove a node
> from the datastore for failing to connect once. Freenet should be able to
> tolerate a node disappearing for an hour or two now and then. I really
> think we should implement the decayed contact heuristic.
I second that. I like agl's implementation which will ignore all
references to a node for a certain time if not reachable, enlarging the
ignore phase every time, until it is totally dropped in the end (if I
understood his scheme correct).
How about adding "backup references" when a node comes across an other
data source reference for a key that it already knows. It could hold up
to two or three references for a key, using the backup references only
when the primary node is not reachable. This way it wouldn't hurt the
routing system, I guess.
Sebastian
--__--__--
Message: 9
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 18:32:13 +0100
From: Oskar Sandberg <md98-...@nada.kth.se>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] Announcement Protocol
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
On Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 11:10:20AM -0500, Chris Anderson wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 03, 2001, Oskar Sandberg wrote:
> >
> > 1) In our version, Alice has to trust that Bob is a legitimate
> > node, but Bob does not even have to know who Alice is. Freenet
> > nodes should (for obvious reasons) not be handing out lists of
> > their references to just anybody, so for Bob to give Alice a bunch
> > of references he has to have reason to trust Alice - and not just
> > to be a legitimate node, but to being somebody who is capable of
> > keeping this information secret (and either way, when Alice
> > proceeds to make the announcement there is a leak, at least to
> > traffic analysis, exactly what references Bob had).
>
> Am I misunderstanding? Isn't the purpose of the Announcement
> protocol to seed Alice with references to other nodes, regardless of
> Alice's evilness? How can you stop evil Alice from Announcing
> to every new freenet node she finds, culling lots of references?
No, the proposed protocol doesn't return any references from the nodes
Alice is introduced to. It just returns key values (and from the routing
table, not from data stored in the node).
--
'DeCSS would be fine. Where is it?'
'Here,' Montag touched his head.
'Ah,' Granger smiled and nodded.
Oskar Sandberg
md98-osa at nada.kth.se
--__--__--
Message: 10
From: Gianni Johansson <giannijohans...@mediaone.net>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] List gone quiet
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 12:35:39 -0500
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
On Friday 02 February 2001 22:12, you wrote:
> > Hey, why don't we turn the filter on? I haven't heard a bug report in
> ages.
>
I second this.
I haven't seen any bugs either. Even if there are some, we should get the
filter out into wider use (with the appropriate warnings and caveats) so that
we find them.
If people have objections could they please provide specific examples of
known exploits. Not just generic complaints that "filtering is inherently
difficult and imperfect so we shouldn't have any filtering" which is sort of
equivalent to "I can easily open the door to your house with 1kg of plastic
explosives, so it's stupid for you to put a lock on it."
--gj
--
Web page inside Freenet:
freenet:KSK at webpages/gj_jump0
--__--__--
Message: 11
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 12:37:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Chris Anderson <chris...@charm.net>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] Announcement Protocol
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
On Sat, Feb 03, 2001, Oskar Sandberg wrote:
> No, the proposed protocol doesn't return any references from the
> nodes Alice is introduced to. It just returns key values (and from
> the routing table, not from data stored in the node).
Ah, that makes much more sense.
--__--__--
Message: 12
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 18:39:46 +0100
From: Oskar Sandberg <md98-...@nada.kth.se>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark)
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
On Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 10:55:58AM -0500, Peter Todd wrote:
< >
> > Well, Setup.java says:
> >
> > public static void setParamConnectTimeout() {
> > String id = "connectTimeout";
> > expComment("How long to wait to connect to a host before giving up
> > (in milliseconds)");
> > long l = params.getlong(id,Core.defaultConnectTimeout);
> > if (expert)
> > l = getNumber("?",l);
> > out.println(id+ "=" + l);
> > }
> >
> > I'm assuming that the first time this is run the params object is empty...
>
> Most Linux users probably don't use Setup.java I know I didn't say
> anything about it's use in my Install and Admin artical.
We should make it so the node does not start unless Setup has been run. I
intended to make the syntax as close to normal options when installing
debian packages. I don't remember how right I got it.
> If 30 seconds is the correct default we better make that the default
> in .freenetrc
That may be a little too high.
> > > And one of those possibly reasons is being overloaded, (IE max
> > > connectionTreads reached) correct?
> >
> > No, such machines will currently just close the connection. This will
> > result in a SendFailedException on the first message.
>
> Which will punish the node in the same way that any connection fail
> will, removing references to it and reducing it's load as you know.
Yes, that is the point, but that has nothing to do with the connection
time setting. Maybe we need more threads allowed by default though...
--
'DeCSS would be fine. Where is it?'
'Here,' Montag touched his head.
'Ah,' Granger smiled and nodded.
Oskar Sandberg
md98-osa at nada.kth.se
--__--__--
Message: 13
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] List gone quiet
From: Mr.Bad <mr....@pigdog.org>
Organization: Pigdog Journal
Date: 03 Feb 2001 09:38:53 -0800
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
>>>>> "GJ" == Gianni Johansson <giannijohansson at mediaone.net> writes:
GJ> I second this.
GJ> I haven't seen any bugs either. Even if there are some, we
GJ> should get the filter out into wider use (with the appropriate
GJ> warnings and caveats) so that we find them.
Building right now... the filtering code is IN 0.3.7, but it's turned
off by default.
~Mr. Bad
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
/\____/\ Mr. Bad <mr.bad at pigdog.org>
\ / Pigdog Journal | http://pigdog.org/ | *Stay*Real*Bad*
| (X \x)
( ((**) "If it's not bad, don't do it.
\ <vvv> If it's not crazy, don't say it." - Ben Franklin
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--__--__--
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