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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark) (Tavin Cole)
2. Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark) (Mr.Bad)
3. Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark) (Tavin Cole)
4. Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark) (Mark J. Roberts)
5. Re: Aardvark (Chris Anderson)
6. Re: Aardvark (Scott G. Miller)
7. Espra - what's that? (tav)
8. Re: 0.3.7 (Ruediger Kapitza)
9. Re: 0.3.7 (Mr.Bad)
10. Re: Aardvark (Oskar Sandberg)
11. Re: Problems for splitting (Oskar Sandberg)
12. Re: Aardvark (Chris Anderson)
13. Re: Aardvark (Scott G. Miller)
14. Re: Espra - what's that? (Steven Hazel)
--__--__--
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 22:26:53 -0500
From: Tavin Cole <ta...@mailandnews.com>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark)
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
On Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 10:12:28PM -0500, Peter Todd wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Feb 2001, you wrote:
> > >>>>> "TC" == Tavin Cole <tavin at mailandnews.com> writes:
> >
> > TC> [...] They can't all be taken down [...]
> >
> > Why do we even HAVE Freenet, then?
> >
> > Considering that:
> >
> > 1) A Freenet directory _can_ be done with all communication
> > done within Freenet, and
>
> Or at the very least using plain old email. We don't need no fancy
> web-based submission service.
I have a scheme for HTTP POSTs of html forms through an fproxy-like
client, with thinkcash or hashcash based spam control.
It also doubles, more or less, as a scheme for in-freenet email.
--
// Tavin Cole
--__--__--
Message: 2
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark)
From: Mr.Bad <mr....@pigdog.org>
Organization: Pigdog Journal
Date: 04 Feb 2001 19:48:06 -0800
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
>>>>> "TC" == Tavin Cole <tavin at mailandnews.com> writes:
TC> It also doubles, more or less, as a scheme for in-freenet
TC> email.
Hey, that makes at least 3.
~Mr. Bad
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
/\____/\ Mr. Bad <mr.bad at pigdog.org>
\ / Pigdog Journal | http://pigdog.org/ | *Stay*Real*Bad*
| (X \x)
( ((**) "If it's not bad, don't do it.
\ <vvv> If it's not crazy, don't say it." - Ben Franklin
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--__--__--
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 22:52:22 -0500
From: Tavin Cole <ta...@mailandnews.com>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark)
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
On Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 07:48:06PM -0800, Mr . Bad wrote:
> >>>>> "TC" == Tavin Cole <tavin at mailandnews.com> writes:
>
> TC> It also doubles, more or less, as a scheme for in-freenet
> TC> email.
>
> Hey, that makes at least 3.
I only know of one with a flood control mechanism (mine).
--
// Tavin Cole
--__--__--
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 21:59:12 -0500 (EST)
From: "Mark J. Roberts" <m...@statesmean.com>
To: <devl at freenetproject.org>
Subject: Re: Killing Freenet (Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark)
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
On Sun, 4 Feb 2001, Tavin Cole wrote:
> I only know of one with a flood control mechanism (mine).
What is it?
--
Mark Roberts
mjr at statesmean.com
--__--__--
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 23:17:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Chris Anderson <chris...@charm.net>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
On Sun, Feb 04, 2001, Scott G. Miller wrote:
>
> I promise you can't transfer 18mbits/sec out of Java. You're comparing
> apples to oranges.
Actually, just the java node transfer isn't too bad... about 12 mbit/s;
the client is doing most of the work. I think the w98/java combination is
not a very good one. You need at least 64mb for just simple java
programs. People who run a proxy, a node, IE and whatever else on w98 are
insane unless they have lots of memory. I don't see wide acceptance of a
Java Freenet implementation on w98 unless there is an application that
people buy memory in order to run.
> You won't be transfering more than 1mbit/sec out of your node anyway,
> so whats the big deal?
I'm just looking at local cache performance (I'll hit the network
performance when I'm ready). Bulk loading in particular could be speeded
up if there was an option to treat localhost in the clear. I can
think of applications which hit the local cache more than once.
--__--__--
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 23:32:41 -0500
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark
From: "Scott G. Miller" <scgmi...@indiana.edu>
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
--2B/JsCI69OhZNC5r
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>=20
> I'm just looking at local cache performance (I'll hit the network
> performance when I'm ready). Bulk loading in particular could be speeded
> up if there was an option to treat localhost in the clear. I can=20
> think of applications which hit the local cache more than once.
>=20
Yeah, I can agree with local only in the clear, and it will probably
happen eventually, but its not a critical issue. Performance is
reasonable as it is.
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--__--__--
Message: 7
From: "tav" <tavli...@espnow.com>
To: <devl at freenetproject.org>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 07:59:08 -0000
Organization: esp worldwide ltd
Subject: [freenet-devl] Espra - what's that?
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
caught up with the morning's mail and saw a bit of talk about
espra, and thought i would help alleviate some confusions.
so, lets see....
>>>>> SH == "Steven Hazel" <sah at thalassocracy.org> wrties:
SH> They're not in beta, they're in vapor.
vapor, water in the gaseous phase, is a key element in both the
hydrological cycle and the greenhouse effect. and our lovely
planet is able to sport life because of these...
therefore, i am proud to hear that espra is in VAPOR!
for the vapor shall condense and eventually become the
expansive watery oceans so vital to life!
>>>>> PT == "Peter Todd" <retep2 at home.com> writes:
PT> Whatever Espra is I don't see anything
PT> happening with it. No code, no nothing.
PT> We can assume it's dead.
WRONG!
No banana for you! Bad Monkey!
espra is very much alive! ;p
>>>>> IC == "Ian Clarke" <lists at octayne.com> writes:
IC> We need a killer-app. Perhaps Espra
IC> will fulfill this role, but those guys have
IC> been so quiet
we have been quiet because we have feared that people would
send those men in white coats after us!
that aside, we have also been quiet because after collapsing
from coding for 3 days in a row... waking up... plotting to
take over the world... coding... well, to cut a long story
short... we have big plans! we have had very little sleep!
IC> I am unsure of where their development is
monkey, where you at monkey?!
it is quite healthy... we are just wrapping things up for a
nice beta release
no... really!
espra 0.0.5.1 - the hazel-clarke-todd release
expect it in 52 hours!
IC> and am still unclear as to what exactly they
IC> are trying to create.
to create the killer app for freenet, surely??
IC> The obvious killer-app would be mp3s, but
IC> for this we need a method that updatable
IC> catalogs of mp3s can be stored on Freenet
IC> (preferably in hierarchical indexes rather
IC> than just flat files for scalability). FProxy
IC> could be used to browse and download these
IC> mp3s. There should be a very easy way to
IC> take someone else's catalog and incorporate
IC> it into your own (so that individual catalogs
IC> will tend to glob into larger and larger catalogs
IC> making them much more useful).
wow! thank you for describing certain aspects of espra!
see! people can read and understand the espra-dev list!
IC> The other obvious killer-app would be porn,
IC> but of course nobody here is interested in that ;-)
did i not mention that espra is the future of content
distribution on the internet?
so, a few releases down the line we will start seeing all sorts
of multiple media types and lovely content *cough*
now, stop breathing into those female monkey cages...
--
best regards, tav
tav at espnow.com
--__--__--
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 10:14:44 +0100 (CET)
From: Ruediger Kapitza <rrkap...@stud.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] 0.3.7
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
On 4 Feb 2001, Mr.Bad wrote:
> >>>>> "RK" == Ruediger Kapitza <rrkapitz at stud.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
> >>>>> writes:
> The paths are as follows:
>
> /etc/freenet/freenetrc - Freenet rc file
> /etc/freenet/fproxyrc - FProxy rc file
> /etc/freenet/nodes.config - nodes file
> /etc/logrotate.d/freenet - Freenet log rotation file
Seems to be a deb thing. /etc/logfiles (for SuSe) will leave it out
> /usr/share/java/freenet.jar - Freenet jar file
Why ../java/.. ? Just wondering. /usr/freenet/lib/freenet.jar
> /usr/bin/freenet_insert - insert script
> /usr/bin/freenet_retrieve - retrieve script
> /usr/bin/freenet_config - config script
> /usr/bin/freenet_server - server script (not normally used)
> /usr/bin/freenet_server_stop - server script (not normally used)
> /var/lib/freenet/store_[port] - store index
> /var/lib/freenet/data/[port] - data file directory
> /var/lib/freenet/meta/[port] - metadata file directory
Why not /var/spool/freenet/... or its although a SuSe rpm-distro thing.
> Normally the Freenet node starts from the init.d script rather than
> from freenet_server. Also, it runs as user 'freenet'.
That's the way.
> If you're really going to make an RPM, I'll send you a tarball of the
> files stored in the .deb, so you can look at them.
I guess (now) there is everything in the diff on the website.
(freenet_0.3.6-1.diff.gz)
Ruediger
--__--__--
Message: 9
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] 0.3.7
From: Mr.Bad <mr....@pigdog.org>
Organization: Pigdog Journal
Date: 05 Feb 2001 01:14:51 -0800
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
>>>>> "RK" == Ruediger Kapitza <rrkapitz at stud.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
>>>>> writes:
RK> Why ../java/.. ? Just wondering. /usr/freenet/lib/freenet.jar
Debian Java standards. Jars go in /usr/share/java.
RK> Why not /var/spool/freenet/... or its although a SuSe
RK> rpm-distro thing.
Yeah, it's a Linux Filesystem Standard thing. I asked a ton of people
and it was a tossup between /var/cache and /var/lib. I didn't think
thinking of the datastore as a "cache" was a good idea (it is, but it
isn't), so it went to /var/lib.
RK> I guess (now) there is everything in the diff on the website.
RK> (freenet_0.3.6-1.diff.gz)
OK, I'm doing an 0.3.7 in the next 12 hours.
~Mr. Bad
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
/\____/\ Mr. Bad <mr.bad at pigdog.org>
\ / Pigdog Journal | http://pigdog.org/ | *Stay*Real*Bad*
| (X \x)
( ((**) "If it's not bad, don't do it.
\ <vvv> If it's not crazy, don't say it." - Ben Franklin
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--__--__--
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 11:04:08 +0100
From: Oskar Sandberg <md98-...@nada.kth.se>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
On Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 11:17:08PM -0500, Chris Anderson wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 04, 2001, Scott G. Miller wrote:
> >
> > I promise you can't transfer 18mbits/sec out of Java. You're comparing
> > apples to oranges.
>
> Actually, just the java node transfer isn't too bad... about 12 mbit/s;
> the client is doing most of the work. I think the w98/java combination is
> not a very good one. You need at least 64mb for just simple java
> programs. People who run a proxy, a node, IE and whatever else on w98 are
> insane unless they have lots of memory. I don't see wide acceptance of a
> Java Freenet implementation on w98 unless there is an application that
> people buy memory in order to run.
Your whining would be both more interesting and more useful if you
provided some unit tests to show what layer it is that is costing so much.
IE, what capacity do you get if you write a simple app that transfers over
a java socket. What is the cost of adding a
Freenet.crypt.CipherInputStream/OutputStream in either end? What is the
cost of adding a Freenet.crypt.ProgressiveHashInputStream/OutputStream?
> > You won't be transfering more than 1mbit/sec out of your node anyway,
> > so whats the big deal?
>
> I'm just looking at local cache performance (I'll hit the network
> performance when I'm ready). Bulk loading in particular could be speeded
> up if there was an option to treat localhost in the clear. I can
> think of applications which hit the local cache more than once.
This is a nonissue since the clients will be integrated into the node in
0.4.
--
'DeCSS would be fine. Where is it?'
'Here,' Montag touched his head.
'Ah,' Granger smiled and nodded.
Oskar Sandberg
md98-osa at nada.kth.se
--__--__--
Message: 11
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 11:12:35 +0100
From: Oskar Sandberg <md98-...@nada.kth.se>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] Problems for splitting
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
On Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 07:15:29PM -0800, Timm Murray wrote:
> From: "Oskar Sandberg" <md98-osa at nada.kth.se>
< >
> > So your program was fucked up and screwed up some newline or something.
>
> Wouldn't that mess up the .tar.gz and .deb, too?
It may very well not have.
> I don't know, maybe it was the program.
I'd say the odds are a toss off between that and an act of God upsetting
the fundamental logical axioms of our universe because he likes Debian
better...
--
'DeCSS would be fine. Where is it?'
'Here,' Montag touched his head.
'Ah,' Granger smiled and nodded.
Oskar Sandberg
md98-osa at nada.kth.se
--__--__--
Message: 12
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 07:07:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Chris Anderson <chris...@charm.net>
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Oskar Sandberg wrote:
> Your whining would be both more interesting and more useful if you
> provided some unit tests to show what layer it is that is costing so
> much. IE, what capacity do you get if you write a simple app that
> transfers over a java socket. What is the cost of adding a
> Freenet.crypt.CipherInputStream/OutputStream in either end? What is the
> cost of adding a Freenet.crypt.ProgressiveHashInputStream/OutputStream?
Well, for the node, you know it's going to be around 95% Rijndael. Just
looking at the overall numbers tells you that encrypt/decrypt
dominates... A search request uses about 75% of the cpu at the client,
pretty close to the 66% it would take if encryption totally dominated (2
at the client 1 at the node). The Sha1 module at the client is eating the
rest.
We could squeeze a little more out of it by operating on blocks rather
than chars in the streams, but that's a lot of work for not a lot of
gain.
> > > You won't be transfering more than 1mbit/sec out of your node
> > > anyway, so whats the big deal?
> >
> > I'm just looking at local cache performance (I'll hit the network
> > performance when I'm ready). Bulk loading in particular could be
> > speeded up if there was an option to treat localhost in the clear. I
> > can think of applications which hit the local cache more than once.
>
> This is a nonissue since the clients will be integrated into the node
> in 0.4.
That would do it.
--__--__--
Message: 13
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 10:39:26 -0500
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] Aardvark
From: "Scott G. Miller" <scgmi...@indiana.edu>
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
--tKW2IUtsqtDRztdT
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> We could squeeze a little more out of it by operating on blocks rather
> than chars in the streams, but that's a lot of work for not a lot of
> gain.
No, that can't be done, or I would have done it. The PCFB algorithm
prevents it. To switch to blocks, you'd need all sorts of padding
nightmares in the code.
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--__--__--
Message: 14
To: devl at freenetproject.org
Subject: Re: [freenet-devl] Espra - what's that?
From: Steven Hazel <s...@thalassocracy.org>
Date: 05 Feb 2001 12:59:07 -0600
Reply-To: devl at freenetproject.org
"tav" <tavlists at espnow.com> writes:
> therefore, i am proud to hear that espra is in VAPOR!
>
> for the vapor shall condense and eventually become the
> expansive watery oceans so vital to life!
And I'll be happy to see it do so. I'd also like to see it backed by
libfreenet, and I'm willing to put in a considerable amount of time
helping to make that happen, because otherwise I'm going to have to
write a libfreenet-backed GUI client myself.
So let me know where to start, and I'll just dig right in.
-S
--__--__--
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