On Sun, Nov 17, 2002 at 02:03:07PM +0100, Oskar Sandberg wrote: > On Sat, Nov 16, 2002 at 06:59:01PM -0800, Ian Clarke wrote: > > On Sun, Nov 17, 2002 at 02:20:14AM +0100, Oskar Sandberg wrote: > > > I think we do a poor job of presenting the requirements of freenet > > > involvement to those who stumble upon it. To use freenet, a host must > > > be: > > > > > > (a) Accessible to connections from the Internet. > > > > Most people on a broadband or modem connection > > ...that are not running a NAT or who know how to configure it (which > rules out the popular NAT boxes, windows connection sharing etc etc). > And just having broadband rules out the overwhelming majority of the > Internet's population already - the countries with the highest broadband > penetration are still in the twenties. Yeah, blergh. Aren't there supposed to be some protocols for talking to NATs? > > > > (b) Permanently addressed. > > > > Not true at all. Technically my IP address can change, as it is DHCP, > > however in over 18 months of having a cable internet hookup - my IP > > address has only changed once. By your definition, my computer would be > > useless to Freenet. > > I didn't say there had to be a static IP. I don't know how long the > average DHCPed broadband keeps the same address, but I have talked to > several users on IRC who were wondering why they didn't get any traffic > and it turned out that they were just changing the IP in the config > files all the time (and even that is too much effort to expect from > users). A lot of people could meet this one if they set up DNS > addresses, but that is a lot to ask, especially if you target users who > don't know what DNS is (on the whole, it isn't that people technically > don't have the opportunity, it's that it is too much of a bother so they > won't.) Yeah. ARKs will solve this, assuming we can detect the IP address changes without too much difficulty. > > > > (c) Constantly running and online. > > > > There is no evidence to suggest that a node can't start contributing > > positively to Freenet after just a few hours, meaning that there is no > > evidence to suggest that this is true. > > I have experimented quite a bit with this. After the first > announcements, it takes about 24-48 hours for the node to establish > itself and start getting a constant stream of traffic. If the node goes > down for an extended time during this period, it is pretty much back to > square one. Once a node is established, if it goes down for about 10-12 > hours or so, it seems to take about 16 hours or so for it to return to > it's previous traffic. (I have a plan to use nukes on the moon to slow > the earths rotation, but that is not planned until 1.0.) Hmmm. What's wrong with moving non-working references to an "inactive" secondary routing table and polling for the next ARK insert? > > > > (d) Not starved for bandwidth or other resources. I disagree. Nodes limited to 5K/second are still useful as long as they can actually serve 5K/second (these are probably the majority of permanent nodes). Especially w.r.t. splitfiles, and small files in bunches (i.e. most freesites). The only thing that loses is single files of several hundred K. Latency, on the other hand, matters a lot, so again we're talking unmetered broadband, which is not that rare. > > > > Well, I download a-lot, perhaps 30MB on a heavy day, on a relatively > > slow broadband connection, yet this is just 0.2% of the total I could > > potentially download on any given day (about 13GB). > > 30 MB??? My freenet node alone eats several gigabytes a day - and I > never use it myself. It also uses between 35 and 50 megs of RAM, and > about half the CPU of a PIII 600 that is dedicated to it. (And all that P3/600 is about 1/4 the speed of modern chips, by megahertz alone. > for sending about 300 pieces of data an hour :-/ .) > > Mostly this point was meant to refer to non-broadband users and those > with metered (international) traffic though (which goes for all of > Australia and New Zealand, parts of Asia, and apparently parts of Europe > as well.) Yeah. Linux users are more likely to have unmetered broadband, so we should provide packages that actually work for e.g. Debian. This means getting gcj (or Kaffe) working :|. Once that is done, somebody should look into resurrecting apt-get over freenet (using a dedicated backend that can use a reasonable number of connections). Package that too, and make sure both packages work reasonably well, and we should get some more technically competent users, most of them on unmetered broadband and therefore capable of running permanent nodes. > > -- > > Oskar Sandberg > oskar at freenetproject.org >
-- Matthew Toseland toad at amphibian.dyndns.org amphibian at users.sourceforge.net Freenet/Coldstore open source hacker. Employed full time by Freenet Project Inc. from 11/9/02 to 11/1/03 http://freenetproject.org/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: <https://emu.freenetproject.org/pipermail/devl/attachments/20021117/e498fda0/attachment.pgp>
