Hi, On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Thomas Mortagne <[email protected]>wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 10:11, Jerome Velociter <[email protected]> wrote: > > Vincent Massol wrote: > >> On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 3:23 AM, Guillaume Lerouge <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 8:01 PM, Jerome Velociter <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>> > >>>> Anca Paula Luca wrote: > >>>>> Anca Paula Luca wrote: > >>>>>> Marius Dumitru Florea wrote: > >>>>>>> Thomas Mortagne wrote: > >>>>>>>> Hi devs, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> We have to make a decision about that. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> So here are the proposals: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> 1) remove the block leading and trainling spaces > >>>>>>>> * The main goal is to make source formatting for tables for > example > >>>>>>>> more readable > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> 2) make the spaces inside paragraph non meaningfull > >>>>>>>> * Meaning an HTML like behavior where multiple spaces give one > space > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> 3) in case of 1) or 2) use ~<space> as non breaking space > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> WDYT ? > >>>>>>> -0, the users will blame the WYSIWYG for messing up their nicely > >>>>>>> formatted table/lists/etc. when switching between the editors. This > >>>> will > >>>>>>> make the WYSIWYG unusable for a wiki syntax user. > >>>>>> 1/ this problem was there already > >>>>> with the old syntax I meant > >>>>> > >>>>>> and, if we use meaningful spaces, we only get > >>>>>> rid of the problem because users wouldn't be able to nicely format > the > >>>>>> tables/lists/etc at all. So meaningful spaces means that you're > taking > >>>> away the > >>>>>> possibility of nicely formated wiki syntax even to users that use > _only_ > >>>> wiki > >>>>>> syntax and therefore could take advantage of it. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 2/ as it was mentioned in a discussion we once had with Vincent, I'm > >>>> wondering > >>>>>> how many wiki syntax users will there be out there once we get the > new > >>>> wysiwyg > >>>>>> strong enough. > >>>> There always will be developers for that (even if not necessarily > >>>> through the wiki editor but rather through XEclipse or bespin's > editor). > >>>> I have doubts about scripting velocity or groovy in a dialog box in > the > >>>> wysiwyg :) > >>>> > >>>> My 2 cents, > >>>> Jerome. > >>>> > >>> After thinking a bit more about it, here's my updated point of view: > >>> > >>> 1. Developers are mostly the only ones who will care about nice > syntax > >>> formatting in the wiki editor > >>> 2. We are working hard to make our wiki easier to use for business > users > >> > >> This points has nothing to do with the discussion. WYSIWYG wouldn't be > changed. > >> > >>> 3. Developers are advanced user thus able to make their way round > whether > >>> ot not spaces are meaningful in wiki syntax > >> > >> No. Definitely not. I cannot make my way around page content I cannot > >> read/write. > >> > >>> 4. Apart from them, almost nobody cares about nicely aligned tables > and > >>> indented code > >> > >> Not true at all. Lots of users are not technical users but like the > >> wiki syntax and are used to it. For these users they care about > >> alignments. > >> > >>> 5. As Jérôme pointed it out, developers will use other tools than the > >>> wiki editor anyway when developing > >> > >> Again not true at all. The strength of the xwiki model is to be able > >> to develop in pages. I do that all the time and most advanced users do > >> the same. > >> > > > > Yes it's a strength to be able to wire up scripts and small apps > > directly from the wiki editor. However, for more lengthy wiki > > development, you want to use a real script editor like XEclipse. In the > > end this question is not even relevant, the concerned editors being also > > text editors, if you lose space formatting, its lost for them too. > > > >>> 6. Thus we're basically fighting with a non-issue: trying to preserve > a > >>> feature that does not matter for the user base we need to convince > our wiki > >>> is the greatest around (*business users* are the *core users* of an > >>> *enterprise > >>> wiki*) > >> > >> I don't know where you've seen that we would make spaces non > >> meaningful in the WYSIWYG editor. > >> > >>> So here's my updated vote: > >>> > >>> *I'm -1 for making spaces non-meaningful, either in the WYSIWYG or the > wiki > >>> editor.* > >> > >> Please reconsider as I don't think you're making a correct evaluation. > >> See the items above, your premises are not correct: we're NOT talking > >> about changing the WYSIWYG for non technical users. > >> > >>> If developers want nifty development features and great-looking code, > we > >>> need to provide them with actual development tools (Eclipse, XEclipse, > >>> Bespin). Business users don't care about that and they expect to have > what > >>> you see is what you get: a space when writing is a space on screen once > >>> saved, be it in WYSIWYG editor or in wiki syntax. > >> > >> This is completely not true for the wiki syntax. You're forgetting the > >> purpose of the wiki syntax. Its goal is to be able to write quickly > >> content. The written syntax must be clear and readable. It's not the > >> case right now when you start using: tables, HTML and velocity > >> scripts. It's a big problem, making xwiki unusable for all the places > >> where it has strengths over other wikis. If you look at XE pages > >> you'll see most of them contain either HTML or scripts and they are > >> not readable and impossible to write. > >> > >> I have always had doubts since the beginning for table syntax and not > >> being able to align them as before but that alone wasn't enough to > >> make me change my mind. However that coupled with the huge issue with > >> writing scripts/HTML makes me completely convinced we cannot leave it > >> as it is. > > > > Totally agreed. > > > > Jerome > > > >> > >> Thanks > >> -Vincent > >> > >>> Thanks to everybody's feedback, > >>> > >>> Guillaume > >>> > >>>>> Otherwise put, is this use-case frequent enough? > >>>>> > >>>>> Happy coding, > >>>>> Anca > >>>>> > >>>>>> Marius > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> +0,5 for 1) it's not critical for me but i'm not against it and we > >>>>>>> already decided to remove space before list item, headers etc. > >>>>>>> -0 for 2) I don't see the need for that and it's a lot easier for > the > >>>>>>> parser to make spaces meaningfull (what to do when you have "test > ** > >>>>>>> bold**" and things like that) > >>>>>>> +1 for 3) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 15:44, Vincent Massol <[email protected]> > >>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> Hi, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> This is our last chance to change this behavior. We've found > several > >>>>>>>> places where having meaningful spaces are counter-productive: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> * in table cells since we can't align table anymore. For example: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> |= column1 |= column2 > >>>>>>>> | this is some para | second column > >>>>>>>> | hello | world > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> (not sure this will be rendered nicely in mail but you see what I > >>> mean) > >>>>>>>> * in scripts since having meaningful spaces prevents us from > aligning > >>>>>>>> velocity or groovy scripts. For ex we can't write: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> #if (....) > >>>>>>>> #if (...) > >>>>>>>> do something > >>>>>>>> # end > >>>>>>>> #end > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> To see a better example have a look at http://tinyurl.com/ahz669 > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> What I think users real want are meaningful new lines but I see > cons > >>>>>>>> overweighting pros for having meaningful white spaces. Thus I'm > think > >>>>>>>> we should strip whitespaces at beginning and end of lines > including > >>>>>>>> for line breaks. > >>>>>>>> I'm slightly less sure for multiple spaces between words but even > >>>>>>>> there I think we could strip them have users use {{{ }}} to put a > non > >>>>>>>> breaking space for ex (or introduce a {{space/}} macro or another > >>>>>>>> special syntax although I'd rather we don't introduce a new > syntax). > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> WDYT? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thanks > >>>>>>>> -Vincent > >>>>>>>> http://xwiki.com > >>>>>>>> http://xwiki.org > >>>>>>>> http://massol.net > >> _______________________________________________ > >> devs mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > > _______________________________________________ > > devs mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > > I think we can extract 3 concepts from different conversations: > > 1) do nothing and let things as it is, meaning spaces are meaningful > everywhere > + nothing to do ;) > - it's not possible to indent content in scripts like velocity or > cleanly align tables for example > > 2) make spaces non-meaningful everywhere and have two different spaces > in XDOM (space and non breaking space) for "readability" spaces to not > desapear > + it's easier to align and indent things everywhere > - this means XDOM contains useless information for renderer > - the user has to understand that when he write multiples space it > will render only one > - to not break spaces other than non breaking spaces when switching > from WYSIWYG to wiki, we have to find a way to store the information > in rendered XHTML > > 3) let spaces meaningful by default (in pure wiki content) and modify > behavior by macros (like make spaces/new lines non meaningful for HTML > macro etc...) > + it's more logical for user that HTML macro content apply HTML > behavior on spaces/newline and in the other hand in the simple wiki > syntax it's easier to understand for user that 2 spaces will render 2 > spaces > - it's not possible to cleanly align table > > Notes that spaces before list (<space><space>* item list) or headers > and generally before standalone blocks, etc. are not part of the > debate since this was already voted as part of the syntax. > > WDYT ? > > -1 for 1) I think we have to do something at least about indentation in > scripts +0 for 1) , I don't think it's such a big issue but I understand the need to make wiki syntax look nice. > -0 for 2) I really don't like the idea of having two different spaces > in XDOM one of them being useless for renderer, for me it's look too > much like a hack. Also I really think having non meaningful spaces > does not makes much sense for users, I remember it was a difficult > concept for me the first time I started to do HTML so I imagine how a > user that knows nothing about HTML and don't want to can think about > that. -0 for 2) since it hides some bits of the syntax depending on whether the user is in wiki or wysiwyg mode. > > > +1 for 3) since the table align issue is not critical (it's the only > "issue" I can think of for pure wiki content) and it makes lots of > sense that HTML macros, Velocity macro and wiki content for example > are very different contents and should have their own behavior on > spaces and new lines. Also note that it's still possible align tables > with spaces but this could not render exactly the same thing that non > meaningful spaces (sometime the columns will be larger), it's a hack > but it makes the table align issue a very small issue compared 2) +1 for 3) as it uses simple behavior when in wiki syntax only (meaningful spaces + new lines respected), html-like behavior for new lines and white spaces when in the html macro and specific rules can be added to make code indentation possible in the velocity macro. Guillaume PS: and now I'm leaving ;-) > > > -- > Thomas Mortagne > _______________________________________________ > devs mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > -- Guillaume Lerouge Product Manager - XWiki Skype ID : wikibc http://guillaumelerouge.com/ _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
