On 12/2/2011 12:34 AM, Russel Winder wrote:
On Thu, 2011-12-01 at 02:09 -0800, Walter Bright wrote:
[...]
I understand that. Java isn't going anywhere. I was only addressing the idea
that the Java bytecode is a burden for compiler developers or not.
I disagree that Java isn't going anywhere. The hassles over the last
year with Oracle are now resolving themselves as IBM influence gains
ground. With the publication of the timetable and part road map for
Javas 8, 9, 10 11 and 12, the Java community is hugely re-energized.
The opening up of the JCP and the voting in of a couple of user groups
to the executive committee has made a significant change to the
management of Java.
Whether this is positive we shall see.
I meant it wasn't going away. I didn't mean that it would no longer be improved.
The Java bytecodes and JVM are no longer the fixed point they were.
Change is now possible. Clearly a zero address stack machine has some
issue, I never disagreed with you on that, but I don't see it as the
infinite brick wall you were seeming to portray it as.
I think it's a disastrous problem as it stands now. A lot of very useful things
simply cannot be reasonably expressed in it. But if new instructions are added,
anything is possible.
[...]
I suspect Go's market is more the Java market than the C/C++ one.
I don't think that is the complete story. Go initial market is cloud
systems systems programming. To date this has been a mish mash of C, C
++ and Java with a dash of Python. Go's marketing clearly sets it up
against C and somewhat against Python. They are ignoring the JVM arena
(at least for now) as they don't see how to get traction there quickly
enough to make things work for them.
I know their marketing is not directed against Java, but I was referring to what
Go is technically. It's like C++ spawned Java, and C spawned Go. That stacks Go
up against Java.
I still think that in the short term there is no value in D trying to
address markets currently dominated by JVM or CLR. Much better to carve
out a presence in an area with a lower barrier to entry.
I used to think that too, until I found out that half of D users came from the
Java world. (The other half are from C++.)
C++ must have done the same by now: there must be good BLAS, and high
level vector/matrix systems, especially with GPGPU being the driving
force these days.
Sure, but none of that is standard C++.
If you still have some of the codes, perhaps there is a way that this
can be turned into something? Clearly the Alioth shootout is one
possible model.
I don't have anything that's up to date.
