Liam, On Fri, Dec 24, 2021 at 8:54 AM Liam Proven <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 at 13:31, Gregory Casamento > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > ??? I'm wondering why Cocoa wouldn't be well known. > > As I always keep saying: my interest (here, there are others!) is > operating systems, and the article was about software packaging for > Linux distributions and the subsequent piece was about how the > evolution of packaging tools is influencing the development and > cons truction of Linux distros. > > https://www.theregister.com/2021/12/03/nixos_linux_os_design/ > > Remember, altho' I know that for the majority of the small GNUstep > community, it's a framework for app developers, a tool for > programmers, it is also more than that. As a proportion of the > computer-using human race, not many people are programmers. Most just > use computers, they don't program them. > What I think we need to do is come up with a reference distro. A lot of Linux users are interested in look and feel. They enjoy > customising their OSes, trying different ones, changing UIs and > desktops. They can't program and they're not interested in > programming. > Right, but characterizing GNUstep by comparing it to an OS that has a look that nearly everyone has recognized as being obsolete does nothing to help GNUstep in the long run. While I understand what you're saying your view is not the common one. Most programmers AND non-programmers view it very much in the way I am saying. I know this because after going to many conventions to speak about GNUstep the feedback I invariably got was about the look. No matter HOW much I told people that we were following Cocoa's APIs it didn't matter... because we looked like NEXTSTEP we, in their minds, only implemented NEXTSTEP. Cocoa is a codename for an API for a proprietary OS for proprietary > hardware. These days it's the only API and the OS has abandoned 32-bit > platforms and no longer offers the other API, Carbon; the name Cocoa > was one of a pair of codenames, Cocoa and Carbon, for a triplet of > APIs. > > [Cocoa] for Yellow Box, Carbon for Blue Box, and the now-forgotten Red > Box for running Windows apps on Rhapsody: > https://lowendmac.com/1997/red-box-blue-box-yellow-box/ > I recall these. I also remember Red-box... I was hoping there would be some way to run Windows apps, but I believe they decided not to do that since it would have placed an extra burden on the development teams. And the Java API too, also now gone because it was farmed out to > Oracle after Oracle bought Sun. > I think the reason it was abandoned is that ObjC adopted ARC which is not compatible with garbage collection. This is the reason why the ruby bridge was also abandoned. > These are historical terms now, and they're only interesting or > relevant to programmers on the Apple platform. > > If you search Apple.com for the word Cocoa you get a 2013 document > with a warning on it that it is archived historical content: > > https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/CocoaFundamentals/WhatIsCocoa/WhatIsCocoa.html > > NeXTstep remains relatively widely-known and respected as the OS that > was the ancestor of macOS. > > There are emulators to run it: > https://sourceforge.net/projects/previous/ > > There are docs explaining how to run the Intel version in a VM: > > http://stuffjasondoes.com/2018/07/25/installing-nextstep-os-openstep-on-virtualbox-in-2018/ > > There is or was a NeXTstep GUI for Windows: > http://litestep.net/ It's funny I didn't know about this one. > There are multiple NeXTstep-like window managers for free xNix OSes, > including Window Maker, OpenBox, BlackBox, FluxBox and others. > > NeXTstep is a thing in the public consciousness. It is something a > reasonably well-informed techie has probably heard of. It's Steve > Jobs' pet project before he returned to Apple. > > Cocoa is an obsolete codename for a tool for programmers. It is not > well-known to the general public, to whom it means a hot drink or the > stuff chocolate is made from. > > So I submit it is a *much* less useful word. > And NeXTSTEP or OPENSTEP is somehow NOT OBSOLETE!? I submit that those are even LESS useful if Cocoa is, as you say, less useful. > Of Cocoa. :) My point was, from reading the article, if someone doesn't > know the heritage of Cocoa, then they will read that as "GNUstep is a clone > of NeXTSTEP." > > Which, to a non-programmer, it is. > Part of the issue here is that non-programmers believe this and think it's dead because our DEFAULT look is NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP like. Let me say this... who gives a hoot WHAT the default is when the theme is so flexible it can be made to look like anything. > >> Is the .app folder bundle format part of Cocoa, the API, anyway? > > > > Part of the API? Not necessarily, but part of the OS, yes, absolutely. > macOS/Cocoa still uses it. > > So it's not part of Cocoa as an API, and therefore, using the word > Cocoa at this point and in that context would have in fact been > unhelpful and misleading. > Strongly disagree. GNUstep is following the Cocoa API. We should make it evident that it's look is very flexible. Saying "GNUSTEP IS NEXTSTEP" in the press is NOT helpful. -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: [email protected] ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: [email protected] > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) > 702-829-053 > > Yours, GC -- Gregory Casamento GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron https://gf.me/u/x8m3sx - My GNUstep GoFundMe https://teespring.com/stores/gnustep - Store
