Liam, I won't respond point by point because I agree with most of what you're saying. There has been, for the last 3-5 years a real need for GNUstep to start a "reference distribution". I think it was discussed here on the list more than once. The issue has not been the desire to create one, but the logistics of doing so. I am thankful for the existence of GSDE as it is very close to what I had imagined as a GS desktop. Originally, the push to make GNUstep an API only thing was my idea... I believe that the focus on getting the UI done has helped us in lots of ways, but has, perhaps, hindered us in others. We focused on being more cross platform rather than JUST on the one environment we support, so it has had some benefits. But now, it's time for us to create a DE, perhaps in collaboration or as an enhancement to GSDE to show EVERYTHING that GNUstep is capable of.
There are a number of things that need to be refined in GNUstep: 1) Printing -- printing is in an AWFUL state... it doesn't produce acceptable output in my opinion. 2) I had started an effort to get us to parity with APIs on Catalina... there is still work to do on this... even though some people believe we still have work to do on being OPENSTEP compatible (Riccardo, I would love to see what you believe we are missing). I believe being a cross platform development API has benefitted us... but I also believe that we need to appeal to the masses as you have pointed out. The only issue I had with your article was touting OPENSTEP or NEXTSTEP... my objection to the use of those 30 year old terms seems as strong as yours to my use of Cocoa which I still don't believe is deprecated. That retired document shows BlueBox and Carbon I believe... those are likely what is being deprecated, not the Cocoa name, but whatever. :) Yours, GC On Fri, Jul 28, 2023 at 1:53 PM Liam Proven <[email protected]> wrote: > On Sun, 23 Jul 2023 at 03:04, Gregory Casamento > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Which part? Also, who do you believe reads your articles? It is > important to play to both parts of the audience. Developers, while not the > majority, are extremely important because without them you can't create the > engagement needed to build the environment. > > Apple does not sell iPads and Macs by talking about the elegance of their > APIs. > > GNOME doesn't get users by talking about the ease of development in > Javascript. > > Microsoft doesn't win corporate sales by telling people that .NET > fixes the complexity of Win32 in a 64-bit memory model. > > Ubuntu didn't become the biggest Linux by talking about the range of > languages GCC supports. It doesn't even include GCC in the base > install. > > You need to appeal to the masses, not the few. > > You get users, you get a community, by making something pretty and > easy to use so that people want to try it. You need to get it out > there, in front of people's eyes, so they know it's a thing and an > option. > > As I have been saying for about 10-15y now, GNUstep is not just a set > of programming tools any more. It's a desktop. > > The way to get people into the community is to make it visible. So > they know about that desktop and are curious about using it. > > So bundle binaries with a distro and get it out there. > > Get it in Debian, get it in Ubuntu, get it in Fedora. Get remixes and > spins that default to it. Make it visible. > > I had reader comments along the lines of "oh wow, does that still > exist? I remember that from the '90s!" > > You will kill the product and destroy the community and any hope of > success by talking about APIs and version numbers. *ESPECIALLY* by > talking about obsolete APIs that were deprecated a decade or more ago. > > Promote the whole not the part. Talk about the most visible bits not > the least. Talk about the stuff users can see and try, not the weird > arcane bits programmers talk about. > > If you must talk about macOS, then do, but I warn you, for Apple > ecosystem developers these days, that means Swift, and if you don't > have Swift, you are not compatible with Apple software development. > > [Reply sent to wrong list in error; apologies!] > > _In re_ the later comments about NeXTstep vs. OPENstep... I am happy > to agree to that point, but I think that even now, over 20Y later, > NeXTstep has more mindshare and more "brand awareness"... :-( > > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: [email protected] ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: [email protected] > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 > Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 > > -- Gregory Casamento GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings
