Hi Even,It is difficult for OSGeo to stop a vendor from promoting their product, or promoting a specific lock in strategy.
But we can:* Support the OGC in developing an OGC standard for LiDAR. Once a standard is in place, there is a much stronger reason to make use of that Open Standard. In particular, many national government agencies have policies which promote standards over proprietary interfaces.
* Provide a position statement (as has been suggested) which explains technically the pros and cons of both the proprietary and open LiDAR interface.
Regarding OGC GeoPackage standard:* I would hope that OGC's list of standards supported has a tick for read only, and tick for read/write support, so consumers can tell the difference. * It is probably not appropriate for OSGeo as an organisation to directly point out ESRI's lack of support for GeoPackage write capability. * However, it is totally appropriate for individuals and news agencies to write about it.
On 2/03/2015 9:37 pm, Even Rouault wrote:
Stefan, That a proprietary vendor decides not to implement a standard in its products is mainly its problem (as well as the one of its customers). Especially as they are plenty of FOSS alternatives that implement the standard! So I'd say it is a selling point for FOSS. The annoying thing here is that a proprietary vendor aggressively pushes his *closed* format and tries to undermine an open format implemented by FOSS. So it really harms the FOSS community. In that matter, the Geoservices REST API episode would have been less critical as the protocol had been at least opened... EvenDear all, dear OSGeo Board While supporting this LAS related initiative I'd like to draw your attention to a potentially similar use case which is at least of same relevance: In April 2014 Esri officially announced support for >> GeoPackage << vector in version 10.2.2 and raster in 10.3: http://blogs.esri.com/esri/arcgis/2014/04/14/support-for-ogc-geopackages-in -arcgis/ ("Support for OGC GeoPackage in ArcGIS") Now Esri support confirmed that in ArcgIS Desktop 10.3 only read-only access is possible. So, there's still no write nor edit capability (and no ArcGIS Server no Runtime) despite this FAQ: http://support.esri.com/en/knowledgebase/techarticles/detail/42567 ("What versions of the OGC GeoPackage standard are supported?") I'm still looking for an answer for an "Enhancement Request" but I'm really concerned about Esri's commitment to (promised OGC) standards. Yours, S. 2015-03-01 22:38 GMT+01:00 Suchith Anand <[email protected]>:Colleagues, I see these kind of developments also directly affecting Open Principles in Geo Education that "Geo for All" , OSGeo, ICA all stand for and are working together in our common mission of making geospatial education and opportunities accessible to all. "Geo for All" will take a stand on this as it not only affects our Academic colleagues and students working in LIDAR research and teaching but will have long term impacts on Open Principles in Geo Education. We will work to put our ideas in the Open Letter from OSGeo explaining this. "Geo for All" started from very humble beginnings and this was only possible because academic colleagues globally came together to change the status of Geo education. For decades even though there was great progress in GIS technologies, educational opportunities esp. in developing and poor countries were very small. This is now changing dramatically thanks to the efforts of our colleagues from Nepal to Uruguay. We got excellent support from all sectors (universities, industry , governments etc) but to my surprise ESRI was the only proprietary vendor who was trying to undermine this initiative indirectly from the very start. I still cannot understand why this particular vendor wants to do that. I really hope the proprietors of this company will also support Open Principles in Geo Education (not just telling externally on Openness but actually practicing this). We want to have good relations with everyone in the Geospatial domain , so our hand of friendship is always open. So please let us all work together. Hardware costs are (and will) keep coming down, internet access is increasing (and will keep increasing) even in developing countries and with free and open source software, even poor schools in developing countries are getting small computer labs established ( i know this from my experience in India) .The convergence of all these factors with a great team of dedicated people is changing geoeducation forever. I strongly believe access of good quality education is everyones birthright and now we are for first time in history getting opportunity to make this possible. We will not accept putting artificial barriers like high cost proprietary software (which quite frankly they won't be able to even think of affording) which will continue denying quality education opportunities for millions of students globally (both in developed and developing countries). So why should i care? Because i learned one of the most important lessons in my life in my childhood from my grandmother (who though did not get the opportunity of "proper education" herself taught me the importance of the values of sharing and about "Vasudeva Kudumbam" which means "We all belong to one large Universal family" and " Geo for All" is for my Universal family and i will do everything in my abilities to make sure education opportunities are open to all. Best wishes, Suchith ________________________________________ From: [email protected] [[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cameron Shorter [[email protected]] Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 7:37 PM To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); Paul Ramsey; Carl Reed Cc: P Kishor; Scott Simmons; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI What would strengthen a position for use of Open LIDAR interfaces would be if such an Open LIDAR interface were introduced into the OGC standards program. Carl, I'd be interested to hear you (or someone else from the OGC) explain how people should approach initiating an Open LIDAR standard, and how much effort / cost would be required to do so. The OSGeo community can then assess whether there is sufficient motivation to initiate such development of a standard. Patrick, For an Open Letter from OSGeo, it would be a very powerful statement if we can list a number of influential organisations who will commit to developing an open, interoperable standard. (This can be a section of the open letter with signatures). On 2/03/2015 4:57 am, Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX) wrote:Paul, I would care to refine the 'yawn' context of 'doing the right thing,' that of standing up to actions that directly contravene an organization's 'open exchange' mission. This would seem the kind of *engaged integrity* quite apart from one deserving a yawn. If your kids do something directly contrary to what the family needs for a healthy exchange of information, if a yawn is the response, there are even more serious issues at stake. -Patrick -----Original Message----- From: Paul Ramsey [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 9:32 AM To: Carl Reed Cc: Cameron Shorter; P Kishor; Suchith Anand; Scott Simmons; OSGeo Discussions; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); OSGeo-Board; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI Carl, No, it doesn't really clarify it. I think what people are wondering is "does OGC have a default mission and position that closed formats are bad for the industry and would it publicly admonish a member who took actions that ran counter to that position". I assume that, as a "member driven organization" whose membership includes the offender, the OGC will not be standing up and publicly saying "this company is contravening the spirit of our organization and mission, that it is supposedly supportive of". Am I incorrect? WRT to OSGeo, I think that black letter cases like this come along infrequently enough that it would not be at all inappropriate for OSGeo to publicly state what is wrong with the direction being taken in the world of LAS formats. The only trouble is, it's exactly what everyone expects we would do, and therefore will be greeted with a collective yawn. But it is the right thing, so we should still do it. ATB, P. On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 8:23 AM, Carl Reed <[email protected]>wrote:All - The OGC is not currently involved in activities related to defining or maintaining LIDAR specific modeling and related encoding standards. Any work the OGC has been doing WRT LIDAR is within the context of processing, visualization, and analytics. Obviously, existing OGC standards such as WCS and GMLJP2 can be used to encode and share small, processed LIDAR data sets. Feel free to check OGC email archives, project pages, and so forth for documentation on any ongoing discussions in the OGC related to LIDAR. http://www.opengeospatial.org/pub/www/ows9/innovations.html : The thread participants looked at NITF, LIDAR, and DAP/OPeNDAP, and investigated their re-implementation in an OWS environment with a focus on the Web. or http://koenigstuhl.geog.uni-heidelberg.de/publications/bonn/conference /LanigGeoinformatik09.pdf for examples. Hope this clarifies the current OGC position. Regards Carl -----Original Message----- From: Suchith Anand Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 4:20 AM To: Cameron Shorter ; P Kishor ; Suchith Anand Cc: [email protected] ; Hogan, Patrick(ARC-PX) ; [email protected] ; [email protected] Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI Hi Cameron, Thank you for this excellent suggestion. I remember this previous Geoservices REST API issues and discussions. Patrick - Could you please start a wiki page and input as much information as you know on this (ideally in the same structure as the Geoservices REST API wiki ). Once it is ready, please email the community and OSGeo Board and we all can look into this. Anyone from OGC willing to help with this? I think this should be open letter from the OSGeo Board to the whole Geo community. I really hope this proprietary vendor (ESRI) will be decent enough to not keep repeating these inappropriate actions in the future. Best wishes, Suchith ________________________________________ From: Cameron Shorter [[email protected]] Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 10:47 AM To: P Kishor; Suchith Anand Cc: [email protected]; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI Patrick, others, OSGeo and related OGC communities have been successful previously in stopping ESRI's inappropriate creation of OGC standards. See here: http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Geoservices_REST_API I'd suggest that if we as OSGeo wish to be effective at blocking a vendor lock-in tactic, as seems to be the case, then we should consider developing a similar wiki page for the LAS format debate. 0. Write an open letter (who to? OGC?) 1. Describe the issue. (Is there someone who knows the issues well enough to describe them?) 2. Describe technically why one format is or is not better than the other, on both a technical and commercial point of view. 3. Is the Open LIDAR format an OGC standard? 4. If needed, collect signatures. 5. If needed, ask OSGeo Board to present the open letter On 28/02/2015 11:18 am, P Kishor wrote: Thanks Patrick for surfacing this. Yes, this should be opened up for scrutiny by the entire community and we should all weigh in. On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Suchith Anand <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> wrote: Hi Patrick, Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I believe the OSGeo Board need to look into this and prepare a position paper with inputs from the community as this has wider implications. This also need to be discussed with like minded organisations. We all can provide the needed support for this. Jeff and OSGeo Board - please add this to the next month Board meeting's agenda items. Thanks. Best wishes, Suchith ________________________________________ From: [email protected]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@l ists.osgeo.org> [[email protected]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@ lists.osgeo.org>] On Behalf Of Lene Fischer [[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>] Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:29 PM To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI +1 Lene Fischer Associate Professor Department of Geosciences and Natural Resource Management University of Copenhagen MOB +45 40115084<tel:%2B45%2040115084> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]><mailto:[email protected]<mailto:lfi@ig n.ku.dk>> [cid:[email protected]] Fra: [email protected]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@l ists.osgeo.org> [mailto:[email protected]<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-b [email protected]>] På vegne af Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX) Sendt: 27. februar 2015 18:48 Til: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Emne: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI Dear OSGEO, For what our good name is worth. . . Do we have an opinion on something so essential as an open standard for a data format? Speak now, or forever hand over your wallet. Individual and collective response encouraged. Can OSGEO provide a short position paper commenting on our values? I.e., “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all [data] are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these [is Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Openness].” The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI http://rapidlasso.com/2015/02/22/lidar-las-asprs-esri-and-the-laz-clon e/ [First paragraph] We are concerned about ESRI’s next moves in forcing yet another proprietary format into wide-spread deployment. Forwarded emails, retold conversations, and personal experiences suggest that sneaky tactics<http://rapidlasso.com/2014/11/06/keeping-esri-honest/> are being used to disrupt the harmony in open LiDAR formats that we have enjoyed for many years. [cid:[email protected]] Thanks much, -Patrick Project Manager NASA World Wind -- Puneet Kishor Manager, Science and Data Policy Creative Commons _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss -- Cameron Shorter, Software and Data Solutions Manager LISAsoft Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf, 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009 P +61 2 9009 5000, W www.lisasoft.com<http://www.lisasoft.com>, F +61 2 9009 5099 This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information. If you have received this message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete it. Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this message or in any attachment. Any views or opinions expressed by the author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the University of Nottingham. 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Email communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as permitted by UK legislation. _______________________________________________ Board mailing list [email protected] http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board _______________________________________________ Board mailing list [email protected] http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board-- Cameron Shorter, Software and Data Solutions Manager LISAsoft Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf, 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009 P +61 2 9009 5000, W www.lisasoft.com, F +61 2 9009 5099 _______________________________________________ ica-osgeo-labs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ica-osgeo-labs This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information. If you have received this message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete it. Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this message or in any attachment. Any views or opinions expressed by the author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the University of Nottingham. This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an attachment may still contain software viruses which could damage your computer system, you are advised to perform your own checks. Email communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as permitted by UK legislation. _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list [email protected] http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss_______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list [email protected] http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
-- Cameron Shorter, Software and Data Solutions Manager LISAsoft Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf, 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009 P +61 2 9009 5000, W www.lisasoft.com, F +61 2 9009 5099 _______________________________________________ Discuss mailing list [email protected] http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
