There seems to be two positions here. The official one, and the "plainly obvious" one...
I really think that we need to get past the discussion of "do we have a lease or not/does our old lease still mean something" and focus on the task at hand, which is whether we're staying or not! On 25 October 2012 10:54, Ron <[email protected]> wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Not officially, but barring any craziness, isn't that the plan? > > Ron > > On 2012-10-25 10:49, Jay Smith wrote: >> Regardless of how the alternatives might look, we have NOT waived the old >> lease. >> >> On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Ron <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> > Hash: SHA1 >> > >> > It is effectively - as I understand it - the situation we're in. The >> > alternative to "waiving" the current lease is a useless legal battle >> > where we end up - at best - with winning and having to leave in 6 months >> > regardless. >> > >> > Ron >> > >> > On 2012-10-25 10:42, Jay Smith wrote: >> > > I'm sorry, and I understand that you're just relaying what Ron said, but >> > it >> > > isn't correct. >> > > >> > > - We have not waved the old lease >> > > - We did not 'agree' to let them sign the document. Our stance is that we >> > > can't stop them from signing the document with the landlord, but we have >> > > not yet recognized it as an official lease. >> > > - AW has not agreed to letting us stay on 6 months, it's one of many >> > ideas >> > > being discussed. >> > > - Anything not coming directly from Courtney or Myself regarding >> > > discussions with AW is just rumor (or in this case, a game of telephone). >> > > >> > > Ron's explanation is a possible outcome, but it has not happened yet. >> > > >> > > On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 10:33 AM, Roswyne <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > >> > > > I called it "waiving", as I believe that is the correct legal term. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Here is the actual chat log. (For those who don't know, iago-x86 is >> > Ron.) >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > [10:11] <+iago-x86> They effectively said they'll invoke the 6 month >> > > > clause, but gave us the option to agree to disregard the new lease >> > (legal >> > > > if we both consent) and sign a new one immediately >> > > > [10:12] <+iago-x86> AssentWorks wanted to sign right away - it would be >> > > > difficult for them to deal with the uncertainty, so we agreed to let >> > them >> > > > [10:12] <+iago-x86> Then AW gave us the option to stay on our current >> > > > terms for 6 months (with them) or sign a new one and pay our share >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 10:27 AM, Courtney Lofchick < >> > [email protected] >> > > > > wrote: >> > > > >> > > >> Who said we waived our rights? >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Roswyne <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > >> >> > > >>> Apparently we have *waived* our right to our existing lease to avoid >> > > >>> forcing the landlord to invoke the six month clause. >> > > >>> >> > > >>> AssentWorks will (but has not yet) signed a new lease, agreeing to >> > the >> > > >>> new terms (retroactively paying electrical bills and paying all new >> > utility >> > > >>> bills). >> > > >>> >> > > >>> We could then sublease from AW for six months under the terms of the >> > > >>> original lease, or for the remainder of their new lease at >> > appropriate >> > > >>> terms. They would presumably want to pass on their new, higher, >> > costs. >> > > >>> >> > > >>> >> > > >>> >> > > >>> >> > > >>> On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 9:48 AM, Justin Lacko <[email protected]> >> > wrote: >> > > >>> >> > > >>>> Siu, >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> I appreciate your concern and volunteering to cover some preliminary >> > > >>>> legal costs. I think I need to stress again that we're beyond the >> > > >>>> details of the legality of the lease and we're now focused on >> > whether >> > > >>>> we stay and reduce our footprint, or we find a new space. Your money >> > > >>>> would be much better spent on helping out with upcoming electrical >> > > >>>> costs - no matter where we end up there will be these costs. >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> ~Justin >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> On 25 October 2012 09:34, Courtney Lofchick <[email protected]> >> > > >>>> wrote: >> > > >>>> > If they want of request AW pay back electrical in a future >> > contract >> > > >>>> then it >> > > >>>> > is not illegal. Especially if they agree to it. We don't have to >> > pay >> > > >>>> it >> > > >>>> > unless we stay. The landlord is not imposing that on us, AW is. >> > > >>>> > Claiming we don't have a lease is different. We have one, but >> > it's not >> > > >>>> > relevant. They can give us 6 months if they want to. >> > > >>>> > You don't need to get a lawyer to determine if the landlord is >> > > >>>> > untrustworthy. A quick look at court records will show their track >> > > >>>> record. >> > > >>>> > That being said if you want to pay for a lawyer please do so but >> > > >>>> perhaps it >> > > >>>> > would be better put to helping us come to an agreement with AW if >> > we >> > > >>>> stay. >> > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 9:27 AM, Roswyne <[email protected]> >> > wrote: >> > > >>>> >> >> > > >>>> >> You can't change a contract once it's signed - the whole point of >> > > >>>> signing >> > > >>>> >> it is to confirm and finalize what the terms are. It's illegal >> > for >> > > >>>> them to >> > > >>>> >> insist on anything that wasn't covered in the contract. >> > > >>>> >> >> > > >>>> >> As far as I can tell, they're sticking to their story that we >> > never >> > > >>>> had a >> > > >>>> >> contract, which is interesting to say the least. They certainly >> > > >>>> collected >> > > >>>> >> rent in accordance with it. >> > > >>>> >> >> > > >>>> >> Is there a particular reason that the board doesn't want a >> > lawyer to >> > > >>>> see >> > > >>>> >> the contracts? I understand it's an extra expense, but I've >> > already >> > > >>>> offered >> > > >>>> >> to cover that. >> > > >>>> >> >> > > >>>> >> >> > > >>>> >> >> > > >>>> >> >> > > >>>> >> >> > > >>>> >> On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 9:15 AM, Ron <[email protected]> >> > wrote: >> > > >>>> >>> >> > > >>>> >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> > > >>>> >>> Hash: SHA1 >> > > >>>> >>> >> > > >>>> >>> They're not illegal. There's nothing stopping them from saying >> > > >>>> "your new >> > > >>>> >>> lease requires you to pay us $6000 immediately". The only >> > sketchy >> > > >>>> thing >> > > >>>> >>> is signing a second lease while the first is in effect, but that >> > > >>>> isn't >> > > >>>> >>> harming us in any way so I'm not worried. >> > > >>>> >>> >> > > >>>> >>> Ron >> > > >>>> >>> >> > > >>>> >>> On 2012-10-25 09:12, Roswyne wrote: >> > > >>>> >>> > To follow up on this - I think it makes a significant >> > difference >> > > >>>> >>> > whether or >> > > >>>> >>> > not their actions have been illegal. If they've been legal, >> > then >> > > >>>> we >> > > >>>> >>> > can >> > > >>>> >>> > continue to deal with them... but if they've violated their >> > > >>>> contracts >> > > >>>> >>> > with >> > > >>>> >>> > us, then we can't trust them at all. >> > > >>>> >>> > >> > > >>>> >>> > If I can get copies of our two leases, I'll take them to a >> > lawyer >> > > >>>> for >> > > >>>> >>> > review *at my own expense*. >> > > >>>> >>> > >> > > >>>> >>> > >> > > >>>> >>> > >> > > >>>> >>> > >> > > >>>> >>> > >> > > >>>> >>> > On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 7:54 AM, Roswyne <[email protected]> >> > > >>>> wrote: >> > > >>>> >>> > >> > > >>>> >>> > > My experience says that people who behave unfairly do so >> > > >>>> >>> > > consistently, and >> > > >>>> >>> > > escalate until you stop giving in to them. >> > > >>>> >>> > > >> > > >>>> >>> > > We all know how this has continuously gotten worse as its >> > > >>>> progressed. >> > > >>>> >>> > > Why >> > > >>>> >>> > > give them another chance to shock us? >> > > >>>> >>> > > >> > > >>>> >>> > > Moving time and costs will depend on what we take with us, >> > > >>>> based on >> > > >>>> >>> > > the >> > > >>>> >>> > > size of the new place and what people consider important. >> > For >> > > >>>> >>> > > example, if >> > > >>>> >>> > > we don't have room for six couches, we won't take them all. >> > And >> > > >>>> >>> > > Assentworks >> > > >>>> >>> > > might be happy to inheirit the ones we leave. >> > > >>>> >>> > > >> > > >>>> >>> > > Similarly, people can take back any "lent" items and >> > personal >> > > >>>> >>> > > projects. >> > > >>>> >>> > > Tables can be folded down, and benches and shelves can be >> > > >>>> >>> > > disassembled. >> > > >>>> >>> > > >> > > >>>> >>> > > We shouldn't over plan the new location. Its easy to make >> > plans >> > > >>>> - one >> > > >>>> >>> > > person can do that alone. But it takes a team to build >> > > >>>> everything. >> > > >>>> >>> > > >> > > >>>> >>> > > We'll do better to embrace a flexible, adaptive floor >> > layout, >> > > >>>> and let >> > > >>>> >>> > > it >> > > >>>> >>> > > grow based on need/usage. >> > > >>>> >>> > > >> > > >>>> >>> > > >> > > >>>> >>> >> > > >>>> >>> > _______________________________________________ >> > > >>>> >>> > SkullSpace Discuss Mailing List >> > > >>>> >>> > Help: >> > > >>>> http://www.skullspace.ca/wiki/index.php/Mailing_List#Discuss >> > > >>>> >>> > Archive: >> > > >>>> https://groups.google.com/group/skullspace-discuss-archive/ >> > > >>>> >>> >> > > >>>> >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >> > > >>>> >>> Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) >> > > >>>> >>> >> > > >>>> >>> iEYEARECAAYFAlCJSWwACgkQ2t2zxlt4g/QnHQCfa1Wt0Q/u8EY8Iv0ea2AhlF+s >> > > >>>> >>> EssAnA3pOsfSM2dxn3cSbjKY6M00aVIk >> > > >>>> >>> =/z5o >> > > >>>> >>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> > > >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> > > >>>> >>> SkullSpace Discuss Mailing List >> > > >>>> >>> Help: >> > http://www.skullspace.ca/wiki/index.php/Mailing_List#Discuss >> > > >>>> >>> Archive: >> > > >>>> https://groups.google.com/group/skullspace-discuss-archive/ >> > > >>>> >> >> > > >>>> >> >> > > >>>> >> >> > > >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> > > >>>> >> SkullSpace Discuss Mailing List >> > > >>>> >> Help: >> > http://www.skullspace.ca/wiki/index.php/Mailing_List#Discuss >> > > >>>> >> Archive: >> > https://groups.google.com/group/skullspace-discuss-archive/ >> > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > >> > > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >> > > >>>> > SkullSpace Discuss Mailing List >> > > >>>> > Help: >> > http://www.skullspace.ca/wiki/index.php/Mailing_List#Discuss >> > > >>>> > Archive: >> > https://groups.google.com/group/skullspace-discuss-archive/ >> > > >>>> _______________________________________________ >> > > >>>> SkullSpace Discuss Mailing List >> > > >>>> Help: http://www.skullspace.ca/wiki/index.php/Mailing_List#Discuss >> > > >>>> Archive: >> > https://groups.google.com/group/skullspace-discuss-archive/ >> > > >>>> >> > > >>> >> > > >>> >> > > >>> _______________________________________________ >> > > >>> SkullSpace Discuss Mailing List >> > > >>> Help: http://www.skullspace.ca/wiki/index.php/Mailing_List#Discuss >> > > >>> Archive: https://groups.google.com/group/skullspace-discuss-archive/ >> > > >>> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> _______________________________________________ >> > > >> SkullSpace Discuss Mailing List >> > > >> Help: http://www.skullspace.ca/wiki/index.php/Mailing_List#Discuss >> > > >> Archive: https://groups.google.com/group/skullspace-discuss-archive/ >> > > >> >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > SkullSpace Discuss Mailing List >> > > > Help: http://www.skullspace.ca/wiki/index.php/Mailing_List#Discuss >> > > > Archive: https://groups.google.com/group/skullspace-discuss-archive/ >> > > > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > SkullSpace Discuss Mailing List >> > > Help: http://www.skullspace.ca/wiki/index.php/Mailing_List#Discuss >> > > Archive: https://groups.google.com/group/skullspace-discuss-archive/ >> > >> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >> > Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) >> > >> > iEYEARECAAYFAlCJXqYACgkQ2t2zxlt4g/Tg1QCg2AGo5b7qeX9EpnDrUdrylUlW >> > nEUAn0HyFyokoA8yKM1AKmQSMV8P5KVa >> > =Yyj0 >> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> > _______________________________________________ >> > SkullSpace Discuss Mailing List >> > Help: http://www.skullspace.ca/wiki/index.php/Mailing_List#Discuss >> > Archive: https://groups.google.com/group/skullspace-discuss-archive/ >> > > >> _______________________________________________ >> SkullSpace Discuss Mailing List >> Help: http://www.skullspace.ca/wiki/index.php/Mailing_List#Discuss >> Archive: https://groups.google.com/group/skullspace-discuss-archive/ > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAlCJYK8ACgkQ2t2zxlt4g/QE2gCfRk/r6nMK++V4jQT5IdXszT/n > D2AAoLaKg3tmlOhFnwBpr9AKydddahPh > =pKmY > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > SkullSpace Discuss Mailing List > Help: http://www.skullspace.ca/wiki/index.php/Mailing_List#Discuss > Archive: https://groups.google.com/group/skullspace-discuss-archive/ _______________________________________________ SkullSpace Discuss Mailing List Help: http://www.skullspace.ca/wiki/index.php/Mailing_List#Discuss Archive: https://groups.google.com/group/skullspace-discuss-archive/
