On 30-Mar-08, at 9:11 PM, Scott Bresnahan wrote:
Hi,
I didn't expect to start a philosophical debate here, but I think my
analogy between wheelchair ramps and accessible commercial software
is worthy discussion. Many websites and applications, like the
iTunes store are analogous to your brick and mortar HomeDepot or
Borders Music and Books. And yes, adding a wheelchair ramp does
cost money and is the price you pay for doing business. N
OK, but I want to point out one thing about wheel chair ramps that you
didn't take into account in your example. They are useful. Not just
for weel-chair users, but for people with push or pull carts, baby
strollers, heavy equipment in hand, hart conditions or lung conditions
that don't let them climb stairs and more. In fact, toronto is
covered in ramps now when 20 years ago there wasn't a one to be seen,
why? because when wheel chair ramps came in, especially when they
started to be prominantly on display in the front of large buildings
and such, wheel-chair users were thwarted for a time by the number of
people using the ramp in stead of the stairs. The same is true of
automatic and button powered doors. Advocates for wheel chair access
were guiftwrapped a marketable way to get access into places it
couldn't go before, and now you can't go hardly anywhere without a
wheel chair ramp. Sometimes they just leave out the stairs
altogether. We can do the same with software accessibility.
Accessible websites are more likely to cross platforms better for
example. They may load faster, and have a more pleasing visual lay-
out. The trick is to show that accessible web sites, blind-friendly
software, and such benefits every one. Or at least, that it benefits
more than just the blind community, while at the same time the benefit
to the blind can be clearly shown.
ow, as for finding an alternative product, in the business world,
Office is the standard and there is no alternative. . Is it that
unreasonable to expect Microsoft to spend a little money to make
their product accessible? What about your online bank?
No, it isn't unreasonable at all. In fact, since microsoft invented
it's accessibility standards for windows, it should comply as a
matter of company polacy and that should cross over to the mac
world. Microsoft isn't the only option though. If I have to use
mac computers to do office jobs, and office 2008 isn't accesible,
then I have no problem demonstrating in a job interview that the
requirements of my job are supported in open office and that's a
reasonable accomodation for me. It doesn't even cost anything which
is a bonus for the person hiring me. Plus if there is some obscure
thing open office can't do and I find out down the road, I can swap
that task off to some one else for the half an hour it might take
and do some of theirs in exchange. Workplaces are not as regimented
as they used to be because they expect one person to wear a lot of
different hats much of the time, so this kind of swapping is common
place. None of which gets microsoft off the hook for cheeping out
on accessibility, but my alternative would be to say to my
interviewer, "Sorry, office isn't accessible on the mac. So I'm a
member of a class action suite against them that will take 6 months
to put through, and then office 2009 will be out in 6 more months
with all the special features I need that have nothing what-so-ever
to do with the running of your company. Can I come to work next
year? Not sure what I'll do for food til then, but since we can't
go anywhere without office..."
The misconception that the blind community constitutes enough of a
market to sway industry to provide support based on our buying power
is grossly naive. We are not worth it. I know, because I am guilty
of it in my own development profession. the need for 508 compliance
is the only thing that coaxes my company to provide accessible
software.
Then I feel for you. My guess is that your company probably has
other management problems as well if that is their attitude.
Disabilities of all types are on the rise, blindness is being quite
a leader their. It's not just disabilities either. The number of
imigrants here with inglish as a second language is on the boom.
Those people need access. You can probably make your own list. The
point is, your company is being mismanaged if access and equity are
not priorities. Companies that are managing access cheeply and
effectively are going to have a market edge for their products, a
hiring edge for their employees, and a better overall outlook for
the next five or ten years than companies who are playing catch up.
Regarding the cost of access, I paid for my own education. I've paid
for much of my own equipment, and I've spent my government money to
buy equipment that I could use for alternatives or to learn about new
technologies. I've spent thousands of my own hours learning screen
readers and access technology, the stuff I use, and as much of the
stuff that's out there as possible that I don't use so that I know how
I can be best served by implementations for my own access.
I'm not cheep, and products like office and roxeo cost a lot of
money for what they do. I have the where-with-all to talk to
interested people about my own access, what I need and how
implementations. should work
I'll talk to any one who will listen, and the thing is, there're so
many people listening that it's not good economic or time sense to
squander resources on people who don't.Consider the fact that if the
Mac market can't force the market to create cross platform versions
of software, how can the blind community expect accessible
software? Consider the cost of the LCD enlargers that sell for up
to 10x more than an LCD camera that does almost the same thing.
But again, if I wanted an enlarger, I'd go out and buy one. If I
couldn't afford it, I'd get government or service group funding. It
costs a lot to be blind. No one knows the cost of access more than we
do, and I'm not saying we shouldn't try to understand the costs from
some one elses' perspective either, just the opposit. But the fact
is, if I needed an lcd enlarger, I paid for one at $5000 so that no
one I work for should have to. Now they have a responsibility to at
least talk to me about what I need from them in order to be
productive. Do you want to work, study, shop and spend your money in
an environment where people are forward-thinking and responsive to the
needs of the people they serve, or do you want to live in an
environment where people are bludgened into accomodating you? Where
they do the minimum required by law to meet your needs without any
understanding of how you use the products and services they provide?
After all you've invested in yourself to get where you are, do you
then want to grind away time and money in court for access while your
student loan drags you down by the throat and your professional life
goes into the soop? I think there has to be a better way.
Now, ironically, I agree that lawsuits are bad and way too
prevalent in the US. But, I also think that proper legislation is
the equivalent of a kick in the pants so companies will do the right
thing. Too bad the mortgage industry didn't have a little common
sense legislation lately.
So, that is my response to my friendly over polite Canadian.
Thanks very much. It's been enlightening.
Best,
Erik
PS: I work hard, but I do need some government help and societal
help sometimes too.
As do we all. I just think it should be less government and more
societal. I have a lot to give back. With a lot of people, that
counts for something. With thepeople it doesn't, legislation is not
going to make them value me more highly. Now, how do I select to
end and get rid of the rest of this quoted stuff? Bare with me, I'm
still getting the hang of editting on the Mac.
In about a minute, I fear I will be wishing I could unsend this. lol
Best,
Scott,
.
Call me an over-polite canadian, but I think that beating people
over the head with legislation is expensive, time consuming, and
counter-productive. I look at it a bit like this. From what I've
read, tost is a 60-80 dollar piece of software. If I send off a
polite email for information and get the brush this other guy got,
I'd take david's tack. Find something that works. Reply to the
company and say, "thank you. Based on your disappointingly cold
response, I looked further and found a program equivilant to yours
and they are developing in the direction I need for my
productivity. I'll be recomending users avoide yours and try theres."
It's really a let down that high profile companies like microsoft
and roxeo aren't leading the way on the accessibility front, but
fortunately for us, they don't have a monopoly.
Best,
Erik
On 30-Mar-08, at 11:58 AM, Scott Bresnahan wrote:
Hi,
You know, has anyone considered the lack of VO support an issue of
public accommodation under ADA? It is not as if the technology
doesn't exist to support VO easily and cheaply in today's modern
development environments. Granted, I can see a video or graphical
paint application being beyond VO, but Word or Toast? I think not.
Wow, and talk about deep pockets... I'm surprise no one has
thought about this agains Microsoft.
In the real world one builds ramps for wheelchairs. In the online
world, they need to build VO support fo us!
Sorry, those in the UK, you're Toast. :)
Thinking out loud....
--Scott
after close thought. I may just give them the ultimate baptism of
fire. For my work I am going to be relying on this software and I
would rather get somethingthat works rather than something that
takes space on my mac and wastes time.
so monday morning hopefully I will be launching my plot
heheheheheheeehe mwahahahahahahahahaha ah that felt good
roxio used to be rather accessible as memory serves me under OS
9.2 but hmmm am I seeing a trend in software and companies
telling us to "FLOCK OFF" lol
lew
On 30 Mar 2008, at 18:43, David Poehlman wrote:
Tell them thanks, we are going to and recommending their
competition to mac
users.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lewis Brock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "General discussions on all topics relating to the use of
Mac OS X by
theblind" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: response from Roxio Technical Support Toast 9 does
not
supportthe VoiceOver screen reader app.
I had the very same problem with them and they dont seem to
give a
thingybob. whats new there? nothing.
well I think a strong email shound be constructed concerning this
product. after all we should have access to it with voiceover
so come
one where's the problem? roxio....... come here boy. come
on.........
there's a good cd burner lol
lew
On 30 Mar 2008, at 18:35, James Austin wrote:
Well if there ever was a daft response Roxio have it.
Let us know if you need further assistance... well... um... Voice
Over doesn't work with your application so I'd like some
assistance
lol.
Sounds like they are not very much interested.
Best
James
E- Mail - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MSN - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Skype - saulky1984
On 30 Mar 2008, at 18:20, Chuck Reichel wrote:
Hi Listers,
Here is response about toast 9 from there tech staff.
I currently use 8.03 only because I've been using Toast since
the
last century.
LOL I don't think they even looked at VoiceOver!! 8.03 is more
stable than 6.5 so I thought I would try toast 9 thinking they
have
improved it but I don't think so! May be it is time to "hammer
them" a bit! LOL
PS Their Lightscrib label app not very cool either.
Toast response below;
A Roxio Agent has responded to your ticket! (# 540159)
Thank you for contacting Roxio Technical Support
Toast 9 does not support the VoiceOver screen reader app.
Thanks for contacting Roxio Customer Care. Let us know if you
need
further assistance on this issue by clicking the Update button.
Regards,
Roxio Technical Support
<http://www.roxio.com/enu/support>http://www.roxio.com/enu/support
Have you tried our online self-service tools? For instant
support,
please try one of the tools below:
Roxanne -
<http://roxio.com/en/support/nh/index.jhtml>http://roxio.com/en/support/nh/index.jhtml
Discussion Groups -
<http://forums.support.roxio.com/>http://
forums.support.roxio.com
Knowledgebase - <http://search.roxio.com/>http://
search.roxio.com
We are always looking for ways to improve so please click on the
link below to complete our online support survey.
<http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?
sm=gogk1iuGIIxICD_2fyt0p0pg_3d_3d>http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=gogk1iuGIIxICD_2fyt0p0pg_3d_3d
Thank you for your comments and we appreciate the feedback
dpd
What's Next?
1. Log into <https://selfserve.roxio.com/>https://selfserve.roxio.com
2. Click on View Your Help Ticket History.
3. Click on your ticket number to view the response and update.
Regards,
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RoxAnn
**This e-mail is an automatic response and cannot be responded
to.**
Chuck Reichel
954-742-0019
<http://www.soundpicturerecording.com/high/index.htm>http://www.soundpicturerecording.com/high/index.htm
Lewis Brock
Totally Blind musician and composer of 21st century music
PHONE: +44 07857 352828
E-MAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
SKYPE: lewisjbrock
Lewis Brock
Totally Blind musician and composer of 21st century music
PHONE: +44 07857 352828
E-MAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
SKYPE: lewisjbrock
----Scott
--
--Scott
