Factually and technologically, there is a better, personally, there is a better and folk should be free to express themselves as has been done in this most productive thread.
On Nov 27, 2008, at 18:16, Simon Cavendish wrote: > Let's just stop arguing about what's backwards or not. the issue > about the cursor position is difficult for those of us - or should I > say diffensively in case somebody gets on their high horse - some of > us who do not have sight and have never had it. I found the editing > difficult myself, and I'm not surre whether these arguments what it > should or shouldn't be are helpful. I actually think Jaws works > better for me as far as editing is concerned although I love Mac and > Voiceover and therefore I am prepared to struggle to understand it. > That's how it is. I don't understand the way sighted people see > things. That's that. So let's just help each other as much as we are > able to. And let's stop telling people who struggle that they should > appreciate one more than the other because Windows and Jaws have > somehow deceived them, or have not reflected accurately the sighted > reality. What do I know about the sighted reality? . It's a > playground attitude. > > With best wishes > > Simon > On 26 Nov 2008, at 01:38, Alex Jurgensen wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> If I remember correctly, someone on the list said that venders of >> accessible software think that blind people aren't up to using a >> computer and therefore remove the complex functionas that sighted >> people use for simplisity's sake. I think that JFW and Window-Eyes >> are designed much in this respect. I see it more and more every day >> that I use a Mac, Apple is right, Windows, like with so many other >> things, is backwards. >> >> Thanks for listening, >> Alex, >> >> >> On 25-Nov-08, at 3:53 PM, Dan wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> I think of it this way. >>> The cursor follows the direction you're working in. >>> For example, if you go back to the start of a line, the cursor >>> will be just behind where you now are. When you hit right arrow, >>> instead of hearing the second letter, as you would in Windows, you >>> will hear the actual first letter on the line. And as far as I'm >>> concerned, that's really the way it should work. The same holds >>> true if you go to the end of the line and hit left arrow, you will >>> hear the last character on the line. I think Windows has it all >>> wrong and Apple did things properly. >>> HTH >>> Dan >>> On Nov 25, 2008, at 3:16 PM, Scott Howell wrote: >>> >>>> David, your correct, but what we need to explain is that in fact >>>> this is because VO is different than windows-based screen >>>> readers. I agree this is a bit tricky to get used to initially, >>>> but you will get the hang of it. I don't know how to explain this >>>> so it makes sense, but if you come up to a word, you hear the >>>> first letter, if you back up with the left arrow, you will be >>>> just to the right of the character. You will hear it seemingly >>>> speak double characters, but it's how the cursor moves and not a >>>> VO bug. Someone with much greater literary skills can probably >>>> make this easier to understand, but trust me, it's something you >>>> get used to and it'll make sense. >>>> >>>> On Nov 25, 2008, at 5:19 PM, David Poehlman wrote: >>>> >>>>> this is a user issue. It is not a bug. My suggestion is >>>>> practice. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Christopher Gilland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 5:09 PM >>>>> Subject: Fw: Really annoying issue with editing in text boxes. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I sent this to Apple Accessibility. >>>>> >>>>> Do any of yall have any thoughts? >>>>> >>>>> Chris. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Christopher Gilland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 5:04 PM >>>>> Subject: Really annoying issue with editing in text boxes. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I am a voiceover user using Leopard 10.5.5. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have noticed this issue as far back as the first release of >>>>>> Tiger. >>>>>> >>>>>> Basically, it's gonna be hard for me to type out what is >>>>>> happening, being >>>>>> this is more an auditory based thing, so try to stick with me >>>>>> on this. I >>>>>> really hope I don't confuse you all. >>>>>> >>>>>> OK, I have a document up, o... let's just say, in, o? I dunno. >>>>>> Text Edit, >>>>>> we'll just say for sakes being. >>>>>> >>>>>> OK, I have typed the following line of text in a new, blank >>>>>> text document. >>>>>> Please pay extremely close attention to how I've typed this both >>>>>> gramatically, and also spelling: >>>>>> >>>>>> The colors of tHe flag r red. white. and blUe? >>>>>> >>>>>> Boy, this sentence is r'r'r'really! messed up! >>>>>> >>>>>> Let's edit it. >>>>>> >>>>>> OK, I go to the beginning of that line with command+left arrow. >>>>>> >>>>>> I hear the word, The. >>>>>> >>>>>> OK, so now I move word by word, with option right arrow. >>>>>> >>>>>> The >>>>>> colors >>>>>> of >>>>>> tHe >>>>>> >>>>>> Whoops? We gotta booboo here. OK, so, I hit right arrow. >>>>>> >>>>>> I hear space. UM? OK? >>>>>> >>>>>> I hit left arrow. I hear again: Space. What in the heck? >>>>>> >>>>>> I hit left arrow again. I hear E. aa, K. now we're getting >>>>>> there. I >>>>>> left arrow again. I hear cap H. There we go. I need to >>>>>> delete this and >>>>>> put a lower case h, instead of capital. So I hit the delete >>>>>> key, then >>>>>> type lower case h. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now, if I read the current line with vo+L, I hear: >>>>>> >>>>>> hhe colors of tHe flag r red. white. and blUe? >>>>>> >>>>>> What? in the world? Why did it do? that! >>>>>> >>>>>> I called a friend for help, and what he told me is the >>>>>> following. I've >>>>>> pasted his response below: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Wo wo wol Chris! Hold on here. Wol! Ur'r'r'rk? >>>>>> >>>>>> Um? You're kind a failing to see something here: You're >>>>>> thinking Windows >>>>>> again. Stop doing that. Voiceover, thank God, doesn't work >>>>>> like JAWS. >>>>>> You can't edit that way. The thing is, Chris, as you left and >>>>>> right >>>>>> arrow, you know how in Windows, your insertion point is gonna >>>>>> be right on >>>>>> the actual character that it speaks? Well, un? fortunately, in >>>>>> Voiceover, >>>>>> it's not quite that simple. In VO, it is actually reading to >>>>>> you the >>>>>> character that your insertion point passes over, rather than >>>>>> the way >>>>>> Windows does it, with jfw, by reading the character you're >>>>>> sitting on. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is why when you hit the left arrow then delete, it did >>>>>> what it did. >>>>>> >>>>>> Let's say, Chris, that you type the word Hello, but instead of >>>>>> h, e, l, l, >>>>>> o, you did: h, e, k, k, o. Hekko? What the hell kind a word >>>>>> is that! >>>>>> >>>>>> So, you wanna get rid of those two k's, and replace them with >>>>>> l's. Right? >>>>>> OK, What I'd! do, Chris, is I would option right arrow, until I >>>>>> hear >>>>>> Hekko. Now remember, Chris, you're not on the word Hekko. >>>>>> Because you >>>>>> were working to the right in the document, where are you >>>>>> really? cor, >>>>>> rect! You're to the right! of the word hekko. That is >>>>>> definitely not >>>>>> where we wanna be, is it? So hit option left arrow one time. >>>>>> You'll hear >>>>>> again: Hekko. Can you explain to me Chris, why that is? The >>>>>> reason's, >>>>>> because now, you moved to the left! of the word Hekko. See... >>>>>> you're not >>>>>> on the word actually. That's where you're getting confused. On >>>>>> the Mac, >>>>>> unlike in Windows, there is! no such thing, as being quote, >>>>>> unquote, on! a >>>>>> character/word. You have to be on either trailing side of it, >>>>>> and >>>>>> depending on whether you've done left arrow, or right arrow, will >>>>>> determine which side you're on. OK, so now. We're to the left >>>>>> of the >>>>>> word Hekko. hit you're right arrow. You'll hear cap H. >>>>>> however, watch >>>>>> this. read your current character with vo+C. Did you see what >>>>>> it did? It >>>>>> said E. It didn't say H did it. ok, now hit left arrow. What >>>>>> did you >>>>>> hear? You heard E again didn't you. Now, hit vo C. Notice it >>>>>> said H? >>>>>> See? it's telling you what your cursor passed over! not! what >>>>>> it's >>>>>> actually on. so hit right arrow once. You heard E. Actually >>>>>> though, it >>>>>> passed the letter e, and since you're working to the right, it >>>>>> now is >>>>>> sitting on the right side of the letter E. So I betcha, if you >>>>>> now hit vo >>>>>> C, it'll say K. See that? You're now actually sitting on the >>>>>> first >>>>>> letter K in Hekko. So, hit your delete key twice. now, type ll. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now read the current line with vo+L. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello >>>>>> >>>>>> See? Mission accomplished! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> End of response from my friend. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> God! blessid! That confused me. I don't totally get what he's >>>>>> saying >>>>>> about it passing over things etc. That's driving me to >>>>>> drinking, as I >>>>>> can't hardly edit a document this way. >>>>>> >>>>>> Is there any way to think about this differently, or at least, >>>>>> maybe a way >>>>>> in a future update, maybe under navigation in the vo utility, >>>>>> yall could >>>>>> make a checkbox, to make it behave more like Windows and speak >>>>>> what it's >>>>>> actually under instead of what it passes? God. I'm sure I'm >>>>>> not the >>>>>> first newly migrating user from Windows to a Mac, who's ran >>>>>> into this. I >>>>>> dono if it's a bug, that yall didn't really fix, as most people >>>>>> don't >>>>>> really seem to care, they just deal with it, or if you all >>>>>> purposefully >>>>>> made it this way, but no offense. In all do respect though >>>>>> guys, this! is >>>>>> outstandingly disgusting! >>>>>> >>>>>> Ewww! Yoyk! You can imagine for people who have to work in >>>>>> other >>>>>> languages that don't use the standard lattin based alphebet, >>>>>> you can >>>>>> imagine for someone like that, how Godly hard this would be to >>>>>> edit. >>>>>> >>>>>> Say in Arabic, you're wanting to type Allah. >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, you could do: A, l, l, A, h. but what if you're really >>>>>> typing >>>>>> arabic. >>>>>> >>>>>> Alif, lam, lam, heh. >>>>>> >>>>>> now that is Not! gonna read with vo if you use the actual >>>>>> Arabic letters, >>>>>> so, editting that? being you don't know what you're literally, >>>>>> on, as it's >>>>>> passing things, not reporting what you're sitting on? Now you >>>>>> got >>>>>> yourself a double! challenge. Trying first to figure out what >>>>>> characters >>>>>> you got, and B, figuring out where your cursor really truely is >>>>>> sitting, >>>>>> not what it's passed over. >>>>>> >>>>>> just, ya know: >>>>>> >>>>>> Be aware of this. It is something that I really think you all >>>>>> may wanna >>>>>> consider looking into as it's so confusing to me, it's almost >>>>>> making me >>>>>> scared of Leopard, and really wanna use it less and less. It >>>>>> just cfeels >>>>>> so awquard! Any suggestions? >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> Scott Howell >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > >
