Derek M Jones wrote:

>>file systems and protocols all to be well-designed, nor do I
>>expect there to be some collection of metrics that they've
>>been optimised for.
>>
> 
> You might not expect it, but wouldn't you like it have it?


It depends what it's based on.  Minimising the number of arcs
on a graph that represents some aspects of the software may
or may not have much to do with making the software more
learnable or maintainable.  I await the convicing demonstrations
on real-world projects with bated breath, along with some tools
I can use and fit into my work environment.  If they contribute
to creating better software, they'll be enthusiatically adopted
by good programmers everywhere.  If they don't, they'll be ignored.

In the meantime, I'm wary of any metrics that might be turned
into dubious 'benchmarks of quality' or 'measures of goodness' or
somesuch thing, because it'll just be another excuse to avoid hiring
and keeping good programmers.  If managers believe that they could
take any old guff written by Joe I-Can-Spell-C, wave the patented
'Software I.Q.' meter over it, and get better software every time,
why should they spend time and money doing things like training
or conducting decent technical interviews, or respecting the
opinions of their software staff?  (Of course, good managers
do these things already.)


> Also my measure would include learnability as a factor.  It would not
> be driven purely by architectural demands and niceties.


'Learnability'.  Care to quantify that?  :-)

>>Any managers who provoke howls of protest from experienced developers
>>will quickly find themselves only managing new hires.
>>
> 
> This is an issue that is not likely to be answered in the short term.
> What manager would be brave enough?


I know some who are *foolish* enough.  I know at least one company
wrecked after a change to new management who made enough stupid decisions
to annoy all the experienced developers, so they all left.  All
the CASE tools and methodologies that the technical director thought
would help him didn't.  Like many non-programmers who've been exposed to
a term of 'computer studies', and who've written just enough BASIC or
COBOL to think they understand software engineering, he just didn't
see that programming is still a human activity primarily vested in
*thinking*, not a mechanical process where people just do some typing
and transcription from time to time.


>> Perhaps I
>>understand your concern with the short-term needs of new hires now,
>>but I fear it's not for the right reason.  Good programmers will be
>>able to provide reasonable suggestions for how to improve the quality of
>>their work, and good managers will act on what they say, rather
>>than trying to shoot at the programmers with silver-plated bullets.
>>
> 
> Ah, the "Good programmers will ..." argument.
> 
> My argument is that there are so few good programmers that source
> needs to be written so that it can be worked on by the not so good.


So, good programmers must be forced to write code that poor programmers
can understand?  I disagree.

I think we need incentives to create *more* good programmers, not
burdens that make it harder to become one.  I'm happy to see the
not-so-good programmers abandon programming entirely because they
find it too hard, or not enough fun, and I'd gleefully burn all
the "Complete Idiot's Guide"-type books that encourage the idea
that we need more complete idiots doing programming.

Tools that might help in the organisation of software must still be
subject to the judgement of the programmers, rather than override it.
Otherwise, software development will get *worse*, because people who
know what they're doing will leave the field to the Joe I-Can-Spell-C's
and their wonderful whiz-bang Metrics of Quality that they don't
understand.  I do not want this to happen, and neither do you.
-- 
Frank Wales [[EMAIL PROTECTED]]


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