And the term architect or lead is also abused heavily in the
industry. I can't tell you the number of "lead developers" or
architects I have met who couldn't design an app or code for sh!t!
Often times people wind up with these titles because they have N
years experience... but it doesn't mean they actually know how to do
anything worth a damn.
-dhs
Dean H. Saxe, CISSP, CEH
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak
minds."
--Einstein
On Dec 27, 2006, at 11:48 AM, Douglas Knudsen wrote:
> adding to the cornucopia here, I'll add that the idea of a Lead or
> Architect may vary greatly from company to company or within a
> large organization. An Architect on team A using CF Technology
> might have no knowledge of Java at all that a Architect on team B
> does and conversely. Further more, their respective
> responsibilities maybe quite different, one may even code whilst
> the other lives in UML world.
>
> DK
>
>
> On 12/27/06, Teddy Payne < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am a little late on this thread and Charlie has provided a
> plethora of knowledge.
>
> To be a lead at anything, it first starts out with your personal
> character. Can you lead well? Do people look to you? Are people
> confident in your ability?
>
> I studied computer science before and really all you need is to
> learn the theory of architecture. Let me stress the word "theory"
> here. In computer science, you learn to apply the same pricipals
> over and over again to languages that only differed in syntax or
> implementation.
>
> Can you be a lead as a CF'er? Sure.
> Does knowing OO help? You betcha.
> Do I have to be uber Java guy to be an architect? Debateable.
>
> If you want to be an integration specialist, I would recommend
> learning Java with CF. If you want to be a future lead, you will
> have to learn to detach from code eventually. Higher and higher
> levels of architects write less and less code.
>
> I have enjoyed my code for the past 10 years, but eventually I will
> have to take the blue pill and come back to earth.
>
> Teddy
>
>
> On 12/26/06, Charlie Arehart <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
> Ajas, you're trying to draw me into answering your first 2
> questions, which as you note I did not in my original reply. :-) I
> don't want to try to get into that debate, to be honest. I don't
> think there are clear answers. And I think we need to have much
> more info about the place where you're asking if a CFML person
> could be an architect. I think in some places, they could be, even
> without OO experience. Certainly in others, they'd have to have it,
> and in still others, even such experience might be ignored if they
> also showed CF experience in the bulk of their resume. You can't
> win all the battles out there.
>
> I will say that it certainly wouldn't hurt for a CFML developer to
> learn more about OO and Java. But there are many (MANY) who still
> never have and who make a comfortable living. Could they do their
> jobs better with greater understanding of software engineering
> principles? Sure. Is it necessary, not in most cases.
>
> The beauty of learning Java (over C#) is that you can so closely
> integrate the two in CFML today. Again, this is something I've
> written and spoken about a lot (as have others). I'll point you to
> a May 2005 CFDJ article, "Getting Started Integrating CFML with
> Java & .NET":
>
> http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/read/86127.htm
>
> There I make the case and point out other resources about CFML/Java
> integration (and there are many, far more complete than mine). You
> may note in the title that I also point out integration with .NET
> (and by implication C#). That's easiest with BlueDragon.NET right
> now but Scorpio (CF8) will also offer the ability to call .NET
> objects. My point with all this addresses your last question to me
> below, "Do you think switching technologies is a good idea?"). It
> need not be an either/or proposition (CF vs Java/C#). You can "eat
> your cake and have it too" (which is not only the original form of
> the phrase, but also the more logical form).
>
> <image002.jpg>
> /Charlie
> http://www.carehart.org/blog/
>
>
>
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ajas
> Mohammed
> Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:21 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [ACFUG Discuss] CF. Object oriented & its future.
> General Questions.
>
>
>
> Hi Charlie,
> Thanks for the reply. It really helped a lot. In
> your reply you mentioned,
>
>
> As for learning more about OO development in Java, if you're new to
> that, I recommend Jacquie Barker's "Beginning Java Objects". Most
> Java books presume you already understand OO (in my opinion) and
> hers was one of the first to walk you through it gently (and
> without requiring too much understanding of Java, either). In that
> regard, it can be useful even for CFML folks looking to expand
> their understanding.
> Do you think as a CF developer who plans to become Lead/Architect,
> learning java or Java objects might help. What I am trying to ask
> is, if a person spends lets say 5 years of his experience in CF,
> is he good enough to be an architect or does he needs to have Java
> experience also to add weight for him to be considered for
> Architect./Lead position??
>
> My main concern is that do I need to learn C#/Java. Lets say after
> 5 years of experience CF, I shouldnt feel that I should have tried
> C#/Java instead of just sticking to CF. Best way to avoid this
> would be to learn something now, instead of waiting for a switch
> later and I know its gonna be too late if I do it after 4-5 years.
>
> Any suggestions... Do you think switching technologies is a good
> idea??
>
> Anyone with answers to question 1 & 2 i.e.
> 1. My question is do you guys see potential in CF that a person can
> after some years of experience treated as Lead or Architect.
>
> 2.Also do we have architects here in this group based of CF
> experience only?
>
> Ajas.
>
>
> On 12/26/06, Charlie Arehart < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
> Ajas, I'm sure others will have much more to say, but I want to
> quickly resolve your fears and concerns b y pointing out that yes,
> indeed, CFCs are the way in which CFML enables more object-like
> development. No, I won't call it object-oriented as some will
> contend with that specific term, but an affirmative answer for your
> last questions is a sign of how far CFML has evolved since its
> being labeled early on (and being still regarded by many) as "just
> a tag-based scripting language".
>
> To your question 3, yes, by using CFCs your CFML applications can
> "have classes and stuff like that". CFCs can be thought of as
> classes, with methods and properties, and even inheritance. Pretty
> much whatever you learn in any resource on object-based development
> will apply to CFML--but I will point out as well that there are
> indeed many folks who use CFCs and never apply them in a real OO
> way. Your example of using them for web services is one of them.
> Another is their use as effectively buckets of what would be called
> "static" methods--they don't try to persist (or rely on persistence
> of) any sort of state data. There's nothing wrong with that, and
> it's clearly "a" form of reuse, but it's not really on par with
> what you'll read/learn about regarding true OO-style programming.
>
> I'll let others point out what they think are good resources to
> learn and apply CFCs in a more OO way. As for learning more about
> OO development in Java, if you're new to that, I recommend Jacquie
> Barker's "Beginning Java Objects". Most Java books presume you
> already understand OO (in my opinion) and hers was one of the first
> to walk you through it gently (and without requiring too much
> understanding of Java, either). In that regard, it can be useful
> even for CFML folks looking to expand their understanding.
>
> The same dilemma will apply to some resources out there that
> discuss using CFCs in a more OO-like way: they presume you already
> understand the "why" and focus instead on the "how", or on
> implementation using some specific style or pattern, again
> presuming you understand patterns. For that, I'll recommend
> Shalloway's "Design Patterns Explained".
>
> All this is about the evolution of a CFML developer to greater
> levels of software engineering appreciation. Going to your earlier
> points, I don't think it's NECESSARY for a CFML developer to learn
> them, but it will certainly help for some work and some projects,
> and will over time improve all projects one works on. It's very
> much a mind-shift. In fact, in 2001 I wrote about why I thought it
> would be very challenging for some to make the transition. At the
> time, I was writing on the transition to J2EE, but it's really as
> much about the transition to OO. You may find it helpful: http://
> jdj.sys-con.com/read/36679.htm
>
> To your question 4, yes, CFCs can be represented as being in
> packages. Indeed, there is an ACCESS attribute of CFFUNCTION (the
> way to define methods in CFCs) which is corollary to the access
> modifier in Java, and it supports public, private, and package, to
> name a few.
>
> To your question 5, there is indeed an API tool. In CFMX you can
> browse a CFC (literally, just browse the CFC name as if it was a
> URL) and CF will present an API interface showing the properties,
> methods, and more. You do need to have the RDS (not Admin) password
> to access that, and that's been a show-stopper for many. I wrote a
> blog entry in 2003 showing how to disable or alter that, if
> appropriate for your environment:
>
> http://cfmxplus.blogspot.com/2003/02/how-to-stop-requiring-rds-
> password-for.html
>
>
> <image002.jpg>
> /Charlie
> http://www.carehart.org/blog/
>
>
>
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ajas
> Mohammed
> Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 8:28 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [ACFUG Discuss] CF. Object oriented & its future. General
> Questions.
>
>
> Hi,
> I am a CF developer and I had discussion with one of my friends
> and he said if you want to be architect or lead, you need to have
> understanding of objects/classes like how they used in java. He
> said you are going no where and need to switch the technology if
> you want to earn good money. The reason I have asked this question
> is because many non-CF developers or architects think that CF just
> tag based and they dont give respect to CF.
>
> 1. My question is do you guys see potential in CF that a person can
> after some years of experience treated as Lead or Architect.
>
> 2.Also do we have architects here in this group based of CF
> experience only?
>
> 3. We do only web development and we havent used CFC's except for
> one place where we use it as webservice. How would someone compare
> CF OO programming with something like java maybe. Can we have CF
> applications have classes and stuff like that. If yes then what
> would be a good starting point to learn & implement in that style
> ( i.e. reusability).
>
> 4. Can we have packages in CF?
>
> 5. Is there a documentation tool in CF like JavaDoc tool in java
> which creates documentation?
>
> I am so confused right now. Your suggestions are needed.
>
> Thanks in advance..
>
> Ajas Mohammed.
>
>
>
>
>
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> <cf_payne />
> Adobe Certified ColdFusion MX 7 Developer
> Atlanta CFUG (ACFUG): http://www.acfug.org
>
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> Douglas Knudsen
> http://www.cubicleman.com
> this is my signature, like it?
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