Am 06.01.2013 um 16:21 schrieb Alexey Eromenko: > Hello, > > I would like to request to design something advanced: a > general-purpose ARM PC, to become a > x86 PC desktop & laptop replacement. > > Target application: > The system must be powerful enough to run a full operating system, > like Linux-Debian with KDE or Ubuntu with KDE, including the most > popular Linux applications (Google Chromium browser, LibreOffice, GIMP image > editor, KDE Kaffeine media player, etc...), plus video in HD format > (MPEG4-AVC/H.264 and WebM/VP8 codecs). > > Today an Intel Atom 1.6 GHz + 1 GB of RAM can do most of this job. > I think that your ARM SoC + 1 GB of RAM may also handle this job. > > Why Linux? > ========== > The world-wide Linux community is a big market -- there are over > 20,000,000+ desktop Linux PCs (currently running on Intel x86). > In addition there are many knowledgeable people, who will help you, > and many will tolerate some of the early product deficiencies, giving > you early buyers/early-adopters. > Android is not good for a desktop or laptop use, because the GUI is > not designed for keyboard + mouse, but only for touch-screen. > Linux with KDE looks like a real Windows system, so having drivers for > Linux (and Linux itself) is very important. > > Moreover, the Linux desktop PC can be sold inside China and the > western world for real work for businesses and education schools, as > well as home users, unlike Android O.S, which is only used for content > consumption, not for creation. Android is for > people, who like to play Angry birds. Linux is for people doing the > real work, as well as for home multimedia desktop. A true general-purpose OS. > > Linux applications > ============= > Linux (Debian and Ubuntu) offer about 40,000 packages in it's > repositories vs 600,000 Android applications in Google Play. > But Linux apps are much heavier and professional, that Android simply lacks. > In short it add-up much more options to the potential buyers alike, > and those do not overlap with Android. Those 2 ecosystems simply > attract different categories of buyers. > You can target both with a single product. > > The biggest problem is Linux drivers. > > Why hardware video decoder ? > Intel Atom class CPU was tested by me, and found not adequate to run > WebM video in Full HD quality. The video stucks every few seconds. > Your ARM-based CPU is probably not better than the Atom. > This is not a problem at all for serious CPU, such as Intel Core i3, > as it can render WebM @ Full HD 1080p happily without hardware video decoders. > > Without those video decoder drivers, the ARM CPU is not powerful > enough to run HD video in software. The lack of Linux video drivers > will limit the use-cases to low-quality video 240p and to Office work > on ARM-based Linux PCs. > > If your partners or you could design & manufacture something like the > VIA APC system, but better, it could sell like hot cakes. > > ===== Competitive Analysis of ARM devices ===== > > Let's look at several systems: VIA APC (VIA ARM-based PC), Riko MK802 > (AllWinner A10-based ARM PC), and traditional Intel x86 PC. > > VIA APC $49 system: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dNA3yHEl2s&feature=related > > has ARM11, 800 MHz (VIA wondermedia 8750 SoC) > 512 MB of RAM > 2 GB of internal flash > ports: > VGA (good) (converters VGA->DVI are much cheaper than HDMI->DVI) > 4x USB (very good, no need for USB hub for most people) > neo-ITX form factor (good, as it can be mounted into existing small > mini-ATX & ITX cases with it's holes) > HDMI (for modern TV users) > Power supply (no need for USB powered hub) > Analog audio output + input (great idea for VoIP; no need to buy USB audio > card) > > Best point: > In short : the PC-like external I/O ports are very strong part in this > design, along with Neo-ITX form factor. > > Problems in VIA APC $49 design: > 1. Android OS (v2.3, it is touch-oriented, very hard to work with > mouse + keyboard) > Fix: needs Linux: Ubuntu-LTS or Debian-stable. > Video drivers are only for Android, not for Linux. > Without hardware video decoder drivers for Linux, the machine cannot > be used for HD video. > As for Android - there is no Google Play Market. > Without Google Play, it is difficult to get Android applications, > which will scare off users. > Recommended fix: ship with dual-boot OS (Android and Linux, > [Debian-or-Ubuntu]), so users can choose at boot-time. Android image > must have Google Play. > 2. RAM 512 MB: not enough to power full Linux/KDE desktop. > It will constantly swap. (for instance a fresh install of Debian 6.0 > x86 with KDE takes ~700 MB RAM before starting any apps) > Fix: boards needs at least 1 GB RAM > 2.a. +RAM slot for DDR3 SDRAM module. (optional, for future upgrades, > PC-like) > Fix: RAM slot is a very good idea for neo-ITX sized platform. (in > addition to 1GB on-board RAM) > *if RAM slot is impossible, then put 2GB RAM on-board. > 3. Storage: internal flash 2 GB is enough for Android, but not enough > for Linux/KDE. 8 GB is minimum. > Fix: put 8 GB flash on-board > 4. 2D: 720p is full stop. >80% of PC monitors selling today are 1080p. > Running them in 720p (1280x720) degrades text quality, so the machine cannot > be > used for text. > Fix: use display controller and SoC capable of 1080p 2D output. > 5. no SATA port: cannot use internal SATA HDD for extra storage and > cannot use DVD drive. > Fix: put 1 or 2 SATA ports on board. > 6. (optional) no WiFi: about 50% of users do need WiFi. Surely it can > be added on USB, but if it is inexpensive (under $8 for chip+antenna), it > would be nice to integrate on-board. > Using USB WiFi is inelegant and may create problems with drivers not > matching Linux. > 7. overall: the VIA 8750 SoC chip is a crap. (ARMv6, soft-float, and > all of above) > > Problems in A10-based Riko MK802 design: > 1. Android is supported; no drivers for Linux. > 2. no I/O ports > HDMI-to-DVI cable here costs >$25 > The problem is that >80% of PC monitors are shipping with DVI. (not HDMI) > Fix: needs VGA or DVI port > USB audio card costs ~$100 (driver support for Linux ARM is questionable...) > (alternative is USB speakers, but those also cost a lot, much more > than analog speakers, same for USB microphones) > Fix: needs analog audio output + analog microphone input, like the APC. > USB ethernet card $50 > Fix: needs ethernet port, like the VIA APC > USB hub $40 > Fix: needs 4x USB ports, like the VIA APC > > So in total cost of ownership (TCO) of MK802-based system is not cheap, > after adding all those extra costs: > $75 (Riko MK802) + $25 (DVI cable) + $50 (USB ethernet card) + $40 (USB > hub) + $100 (USB audio card) = $290. > (the prices are based on retail prices in Israel, in USD, except for > MK802 system which is world-market price on Alibaba) > > At $290 for the ARM PC, it is will be very difficult sell vs. > traditional x86 Intel PC. > The cost of all those converters and cables eat _ALL_ the price > advantages of the cheap ARM SoC. > > Even if I could get all of those for cheap, having lots of converters > is simply not nice user experience. > > Surely the ARM and PCs have the bonus of being affordable, > noise-free, small and nice, > but are slower than Intel PCs and lack upgrade-ability (CPU socket, > RAM slots, PCI > slots, SATA ports, ...) > > What is needed for the ARM PC market ? A hybrid device between > Rikomagic MK802, the VIA APC neo-ITX board, and the traditional Intel > PC, with good performance, cheap price, plus full set of I/O ports to > avoid buying lots of converters. > Full Linux support with drivers is very important. > > It is my prediction, that some type of upgrade-ability in the form of > RAM slot and SATA port will narrow the gap vs. the traditional Intel > PC, and will drove PC users to ARM en-masse. > > What product is needed for the ARM PC market ? > > 1. Neo-ITX form factor (like VIA APC) > 2. ARM SoC (Allwinner A10? or Samsung Exynos 5 Dual?) with 1080p 2D > output and hardware video decoders > 3. Linux drivers for it > (network/audio/2D/hardware video decoder/WiFi/...) > ...your company will have to develop & test them. (or ask the SoC vendor...) > 3.a. preferably Open-Source drivers, but closed-source binary-only > drivers are better than no driver (for things like the 3D GPU) > 4. external Ports: > 4.a. Ethernet (like VIA APC) > 4.b. 4x USB (like VIA APC) > 4.c. DVI or VGA (like VIA APC) > 4.d. HDMI (like MK802 and VIA APC) > 4.e. power supply (like VIA APC; so it could power all 4 USB devices > connected to it) > 4.f. MicroSD or Full SD slot for storage (like VIA APC) > 4.g. Audio ports: analog output (head-phones) and analog input > (micro-phone) (like VIA APC; for VoIP) > 5. internal ports: (upgrade-ability) > 5.a. SATA 1 or 2 ports (like traditional PC) > 5.b. RAM slot: for DDR3 SDRAM up to 4GB module, in addition to > on-board RAM, (like traditional PC), for multi-tasking Linux desktop. > There is enough physical room for it to fit on the Neo-ITX board. (is > RAM slot costly to produce? ) [*] > 6. RAM: 1 GB on-board required for basic Linux desktop. > 7. Flash: at least 8 GB on-board storage > 8. WiFi chip + antenna on-board (like MK802) > 9. Slim design (optional; up to 2cm max. height) (unlike VIA APC, > which is too high, so it limits non-PC use-cases, such as mounting on > the back of an LCD monitor. Slim design could result in a mono-block > PC, product like Apple iMac) > 10. Dual-boot image: Android (with Google Play) + Linux OS with KDE, > Debian or Ubuntu (so > users could choose which one to boot from). Advanced users could > format the extra space (from 2nd OS) to use with one OS, but new users > should see both operating systems on boot menu. It is a form of > hedging your bets. > > [*] Yes I know that the Allwinner A10 does not support RAM slots, but > it can be planned for next-generation ARM PC, if you ask nicely the > SoC vendors. First generation can come without it. > > Such a board, basically an improved version of the VIA APC, if priced > under $100 range, could eat the market from Intel very quickly, > and once Linux drivers become available it has the potential to become > a best-seller. > Lots of on-board hardware will avoid most driver problems. > > After learning about the Riko MK802 $75 and the VIA APC $49 designs > and Intel-H61-chipset-based $50 motherboards, I believe it is > possible to build such a board.
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