Hi Amit, On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 12:13:01 +0200 Amit Aronovitch <[email protected]> wrote:
> Trying to respond inline - let's hope gmail won't mess this up... Seems quite OK. > > > On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 12:11 AM, Shlomi Fish <[email protected]>wrote: > > > >> Hi all, > >> > >> On Thu, 27 Dec 2012 01:11:35 +0200 > >> Shlomi Fish <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> > Hi all, > >> > > >> > [ I am going to write this message in English because it is easier for > >> me to > >> > express myself in such Technical matters in it. Feel free to reply in > >> Hebrew. > >> > ] > >> > > >> > Well, I've taken a look at both Ikiwiki and Jekyll for two projects: > >> > > >> > 1. Ikiwiki for the Freenode's ##programming channel FAQ: > >> > > >> > * > >> http://code.wikia.com/wiki/User:Shlomif/Freenode_programming_channel_FAQ > >> > (present location - requires loggging in to get rid of the intrusive > >> ads, > >> > which is why we want to switch to something else). > >> > > >> > * https://github.com/shlomif/Freenode-programming-channel-FAQ - new > >> source > >> > > >> > 2. Jekyll for http://vim.begin-site.org/ - the Vim Beginner's Site > >> (some links > >> > are broken and the content is incomplete but feel free to link to the > >> existing > >> > resources). > >> > > >> > ----------- > >> > > >> > Installing Ikiwiki involved chasing some CPAN dependencies, which was > >> not as > >> > straightforward because I'm a Mageia Linux packager and am committed to > >> > packaging them as Mageia .rpms, but it was doable based on the > >> perl-Ikiwiki > >> > rpm from Fedora. (Should be easier if your distribution already > >> packaged it > >> > or if you just use cpan/cpanm/CPANPLUS). > >> > > >> > Installing Jekyll was more straightforward because I defaulted to use > >> "sudo > >> > gem install jekyll" (and then some missing dependencies). > >> > > >> > Now the problem I had with Ikiwiki proved to be an errorprone process > >> for me. > >> > I eventually was able to get it working, but it took a while. Jekyll on > >> the > >> > other hand just worked and is also pretty fast (at least here on my > >> Core i3 > >> > machine). Jekyll is also cool, simple and straightforward and has better > >> > support for complex templates. > >> > > >> > While the new ##programming FAQ will be kept in Ikiwiki for now, I > >> think I'll > >> > go with Jekyll for www.linux.org.il. The main advantage Ikiwiki has > >> over > >> > Jekyll is a server-side web interface, so if it's a deal breaker for > >> anyone, > >> > please shout. > >> > > >> > So I think I’ll start converting http://www.linux.org.il/ to Jekyll > >> barring > >> > any objections. I'm CCing Amichai here, because I would like to tutor > >> him in > >> > the new CMS (Jekyll) instead of the ad-hoc existing one. > >> > > >> > >> Unfortunately, as it turns out, I ran into some problems with Jekyll, as > >> this > >> conversation on #jekyll on Freenode proves (I am rindolf): > >> > >> [QUOTE] > >> <rindolf> Hi all. > >> <rindolf> I'd like to share some frustration I have with using Jekyll. I > >> previously used http://web-cpan.shlomifish.org/latemp/ , which is my own > >> creation based on Website Meta Language and other technologies, and I > >> found > >> some things absent in Jekyll like a navigation menu or a breadcrumbs trail > >> using it. Now, when googling for doing that in Jekyll, I usually ran into > >> blogs > >> posts or Stackoverflow threads and not actual plugins. > >> <rindolf> And Jekyll seems kinda opaque to me (though admittedly I didn't > >> try > >> to read its code). > >> <rindolf> Does anyone feel the same way too? > >> <lietu> well, having only used jekyll for a while, certain aspects are a > >> bit > >> unclear and I feel there is a bit too much marketing hype around it, but > >> it > >> works fine, and the information is eventually easy enough to find > >> <lietu> for example I assumed from the information I found about Jekyll > >> before > >> starting on it, that it would by default support LESS compiling, JS, CSS > >> and > >> HTML minifying, etc. .. ended up having to set up plugins and code a bit > >> myself > >> to get all that working .. having never coded a single line of ruby > >> before, it > >> was a bit painful > >> <lietu> but if they end up actually putting more of that kind > >> of stuff in the core, or make proper plugins for all that and link to them > >> easily, it will be a lot better > >> <rindolf> lietu: I see. > >> <lietu> .. oh, and the list of dependencies for my whole package is now > >> ridiculously large, to build my website with jekyll, using google closure > >> compiler, jekyll-asset-pipeline, lessc from node (the easiest dependency > >> really), jekyll-press nad jekyll-minimagic requires me to install half of > >> the > >> packages available in the repositories to get it running > >> <rindolf> lietu: I see. > >> [/QUOTE] > >> > >> > I'll risk adding more confusion to the current situation and throw in > another option: Sphinx http://sphinx-doc.org/index.html > > It is a static generator, stable and quite popular (in the Python > community, at least, it is probably the leading doc tool), supports both > breadcrumb trails and navigation menus (which you found lacking in Jekyll). > Uses reStructuredText as markdown syntax (which happens to be my favorite). Ah, I'm not a big fan of most lightweight markup languages (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightweight_markup_language ) for the following reasons: 1. They require memorising many obscure and brief syntactical elements. 2. They often don't throw an error if you entered invalid markup, but rather עוברות על כך לסדר היום and try to handle it gracefully. Often they accept almost any input. 3. They often make it hard if not impossible to produce the full subset of functionality provided by DocBook/XML or even HTML. How the hell do I create a list item with more than one paragraph? (e.g: "<li><p>Foo</p><p>Bar</p></li>". Mission impossible.) As a result I tend to prefer XML-based grammars or at least encodings that mirror them such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haml or https://metacpan.org/module/Template::Declare . One problem I faced when writing literary works in Hebrew (see http://www.shlomifish.org/open-source/projects/XML-Grammar/Fiction/ ) was that sometimes most text editor did not handle Bidirectional XML very gracefully. Therefore, I defined my own lightweight markup languages, but without too much obscure syntax, and with XML-like tags used for most formatting. > Downside is that is geared towards generating documentation (though I see > no reason why using it for simple content sites wouldn't work). > Installation went easy enough for me (there were some dependencies - I do > not recall how many - which were handled automatically by pip/easy-install. > I guess this might be comparable to latemp's CPAN deps). OK. I think there are also sphinx packages for Mageia, or these can be easily prepared. > > > > > So it does not seem very encouraging, as part of the reason why I don't > >> want > >> to use Latemp ( http://web-cpan.shlomifish.org/latemp/ ) is due to its > >> relatively large amount of dependencies . There's a list of other static > >> website > >> generators here: > >> http://iwantmyname.com/blog/2011/02/list-static-website-generators.htmland > >> it does not include my own (yet), but includes ttree which I have heard of > >> before > >> and ikiwiki, which I also covered here. > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Shlomi Fish > >> > >> -- > >> > > > On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 2:44 AM, Meir Kriheli <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I wrote a multilingual static website generator for my > > website<http://meirkriheli.com/>(pages + blog): > > https://github.com/MeirKriheli/statirator > > > > Might wanna give it a try, didn't get a chance to document it good enough > yet, this Open Knesset thingy is keeping me quite busy. > > Given the author, I guess it would probably also use reStructuredText for > the content :-) Then I may not like it, unless it allows me to write HTML directly or have full control over it (like Latemp and Jekyll do). > Also, since I got my introduction to Sphinx from a talk by the same author, > I'd also guess that this system has some advantages over Sphinx for > non-documentation-sites. OK. > > On the other hand, if I recall right, one of the arguments for moving away > from current system was that popular frameworks would make it easier for > new people to contribute (a new, undocumented system does not sound too > inviting). > That's right. Note that since contributing content usually involves either editing the HTML directly or alternatively tweaking some source data in nested data structures of arrays and dictionaries/assoc-arrays/maps/hashes and strings or alternatively XML, then assuming the contributor has some general software development know-how, it shouldn't matter too much as long as he has a convenient way to build the site. And if they don't and are too stupid to learn that, then they will probably do more harm than good even when provided with “convenient” Rich Text HTML editors. Regards, Shlomi Fish -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ Optimising Code for Speed - http://shlom.in/optimise Become an awesome Perl ninja rockstar vampire zombie pirate. Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply . _______________________________________________ Discussions mailing list [email protected] http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
