Hi Steffen, On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 15:21:04 +0000 (UTC), Steffen Mueller <smuel...@cpan.org> wrote: > It'll be no secret to anyone reading this that there has been a lot of > discussion recently about a CPAN equivalent for Python, sparked by > Guido's "People want CPAN" post to the python-distutils-devel list.
Yes Guido says it's a good idea. Users say it's a good idea, but not everybody else shares that view.. it's a hard ask.. > I'm from the Perl crowd[1] and would simply like to share my > late comer's view of how the CPAN came about. Sure it is interesting. > My thesis is that the huge success of the CPAN has been facilitated by > two factors[2]. The first is simplicity. Totally true. That's what python-insiders find it difficult to grasp. > When Jarkko Hietaniemi > originally came up with it, the CPAN was (and mostly still is) just an > FTP archive with a by-author directory structure that is mirrored many > times. Everything else is built on this flexible foundation and has > grown over time. Yes. Pypi is not so dissimilar. The difference is that while CPAN kept its simplicity, python on it's growth phase has taken cheese-shop, added sloppy noodles, and evolved into a bowl of spaghetti. Not only that, it's a bowl of spaghetti with multiple noodle types now, setuptools, distribute, pip etc. > The CPAN specifically does NOT have an official web > service or any kind of development platform. Apart from the directory > structure of the CPAN, the only other key ingredient was the "Perl > Authors Upload SErver" (PAUSE) that handles credentials of the authors, > permissions for namespaces, and serves as a single entry-point for > uploads to the CPAN. PAUSE scans incoming distributions for meta > information and generates in index of modules (namespaces/classes) and > distributions that is itself distributed via the simple CPAN mechanism. Pypi has all that too.. as you say.. > Let me repeat: Everything else is just sugar on top. Sugar for CPAN yes. But in the python world we get just ghee as the sweetener. It just has a different taste. > Specifically, > everything else is sugar provided by *third parties*. Andreas König > wrote and still maintains PAUSE and the CPAN.pm client[3]. Later, Jos > Boumans set out to write the CPANPLUS client. Graham Barr wrote and > still maintains the search.cpan.org website. Randy Kobes wrote the > similar but equally non-official kobesearch.cpan.org. It's nice when you have community spirit like that. > By virtue of the simple design and the (somewhat limited) > published meta-data in form of the simple module index, everyone had > the opportunity to write tools that interface with it. Another (quite) important contrasting difference in python... > There was no > need to "get it all right" from the get-go. Things evolved and we now > have a best-of-breed. The various services by various people are > loosely intertwined[5]. There's a different philosophy in python. I think the management style is more hierarchical. > There is also very little regulation on what is uploaded to CPAN, but > curiously little abuse. I think that is because the majority of people > who are willing to share their work with others free of charge aren't > the type who'd want to crap on other people's front yard. Same with pypi. > My firm belief is that the second most important factor to the success > of the CPAN is people. There are some individuals who have managed > herculean amounts of work and have shown incredible dedication over > years. But it's the combination of a lot of people's work that is more > than its sum. Exactly. Python development philosophy is much more fragmented. In python we just have bike-sheds. It would be good to see leadership pushing people together in a cohesive way, towards common goals. > I'd say the core of the CPAN toolchain gang is not that > large. Depending on where you draw the line, there are maybe 10-50 of > them. That's the ideal size. > Not all, but many of these people have known each other > personally for years from attending the many YAPCs and Perl workshops. > Reading the "People want CPAN" thread, it seemed to me that folks are > fighting each other quite a bit and not always only on technical > grounds. You got it. > On the other hand, it's hard to imagine fighting with somebody > as friendly and welcoming as, for example, Andreas König. Meeting > in person helps this tremendously. Discover the common goals and > agree on the means over a beer. I too have been beer drinking with the perl crowd. Such a great time. Those guys are just so friendly... > So if anyone was to accept a single concrete suggestion from me, it'd > be: "Enable the right heads to get together over a beer." haha. What a notion... > It is the bonds between individuals that can make it all work > well. The success > of the CPAN is due to cultural aspects at least as much as due to its > design and technical merits. While I agree 100%, we're back to the circular argument as to whether we even want something like cpan. Guido says one thing, others another, and users something different. > Please keep in mind that this is only my personal opinion. Thanks for > reading. I hope this can add some perspective. Yes but you're close on 100% right on every point as far as I can see. All you're really saying is that perl developers are happier after having a beer together. And that this doesn't happen as much in python. If that's what you're implying, then I would have to say that its just so true. Python is different.. David _______________________________________________ Distutils-SIG maillist - Distutils-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig
