On Oct 31, 2013, at 7:25 PM, Chris Barker <chris.bar...@noaa.gov> wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 9:49 AM, Daniel Holth <dho...@gmail.com> wrote: > I'm sure you could build your own broken Windows Python, but who > bothers? > > As long as we are clear that we are talking about a social difference here, > not a technical one... > > IMO it pretty much boils down to the fact that on Windows you > are probably using the python.org version of Python and not linking > with random shared libraries from C:\Program Files\, but on Linux you > are probably using one of a few dozen distro x distro-release Pythons > AND your extension probably dynamically links to some other things > your specific distro provides AND maybe you are depending on some > versioned symbols in glibc oh the horror. > > On OS X I would hope you are uploading only wheels built with > python.org-Python but maybe you aren't, everyone has their > preferences. > > yes, they do -- but what is the target audience here? yes, a lot of folks use > macports, homebrew etc, fewer, but I'm sure some, build their own Python from > scratch -- but these are NOT the people that we want binary wheels for -- > they don't want them anyway. > > The folks that we want to provide binary wheels for are NOT going to be > building their own esoteric python, really, they are not. > > The MacPython community has a long standing tradition of building binaries > (if at all) that are compatible with the python.org builds (and secondarily > with the Apple-supplied Python) -- that is what I'd like to see supported by > PyPi -- just like Windows.... > > Sure, someone could upload some oddly-built binary wheel to PyPi -- then it > would not work for most users, and they would get complaints and hopefully > fix it -- just like uploading a package with any other kind of bug in it. > > It is kind of a pain to build a truly portable binary package (when it > depends on third-party compiled libs), but there is a small but committed > group of folks doing that already -- let's make it easier to get stuff out > there. > > > Will a C extension built with Homebrew Python work with the Python Mac > > OS X installer from python.org? Probably, but given how painful ABI > > mismatches with shared libraries can be to debug, "probably" doesn't > > cut it until someone has the chance to thoroughly review the potential > > for problems. > > I disagree: > > 1) I don't care if homebrew built extensions work with other pythons -- you > want to build with homebrew, create a homebrew recipe. -- there should be a > policy about how binary packages posted on PyPi should be built. Well it was more of we didn’t know, so we played it safe. I don’t personally have a Python.org Installer Python (mine come from Homebrew) and I know others use the System Python. My knowledge of compiled stuff is pretty slim tbh :) > > 2) We're never going to find out what the problems are until we give it a try. > > Fundamentally, I disagree with the premise here: "If we can't guarantee that > anything anyone uploads will work for everyone, we shouldn't allow it" -- > that's an unattainable goal. It was less about guarantee and more about “Can we be reasonably sure this is going to work for most people”. > > If we do want a more fool-proof approach, then the name auto-generated by > wheel should include something that means "python.org-build" only if built > with the python.org build. > > And I suppose we could try to put check code in there to make sure that > extensions aren't linked to outside libs. Actually, that would be a handy > utility to have, even if it didn't enforce anything. (and by the way, it's > rea;lly easy to build a binary for Windows that's linked to an external dll > also -- we expect package builders to be careful with that...) > > > I was told a wheel built on Ubuntu probably won’t work on Linux, so I shut > off Linux Wheels, at the same time I asked about Windows and OSX wheels, the > answers I got from people were they would generally just work on Windows, and > nobody gave me a straight answer on OSX. > > Sorry we weren't out there answering! It’s not your fault! We realized this right before the pip release and sort of quickly added it after a quick check to see if anyone could tell us one way or another. > > Linux is a different story -- not only are there a lot of variations out > there, but there also is no obvious "standard" one could point to that we'd > expect folks to build binary wheels for. > > OS-X has (to much) variety though it is less than Linux, and more to the > point, there is a standard Python out there -- the python.org builds. And > there is a tradition of building binaries for that standard. AFAIK, it is > pretty much the ONLY build of Python that package maintainers support with > binaries (if they support anything). > > > If you build a Wheel with Homebrew Python will it work on the official OSX > > installers? What if I have a library installed from Homebrew? > > probably not, but again, I don't care -- that's not what binary wheels on > Python would be for. And more to the point -- this is a policy question -- > don't upload a binary wheel to pypi that depends on homebrew (or anything > else that Apple didn't provide) > > Essentially trying to figure out how likely it is that with the existing tags > a wheel is going to work if we select based on them.-Chris > > One thing I'm not clear on -- if you do : > > pip install something > > will pip preferentially select a binary wheel (if enabled on pypi?) -- that > may be an issue as folks will surely try to pip install stuff with homebrew, > macports, etc. pythons (though the wheels are more likely to work in that > direction. Right this second it would require opting in via —use-wheel to get wheel installs from a simple ``pip install something`` but there’s discussion around making wheels enabled by default. > > -Chris ----------------- Donald Stufft PGP: 0x6E3CBCE93372DCFA // 7C6B 7C5D 5E2B 6356 A926 F04F 6E3C BCE9 3372 DCFA
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