On Apr 11, 2014, at 6:38 PM, Scott Kitterman <[email protected]> wrote:

> On April 11, 2014 9:25:58 PM EDT, Franck Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
>> 
>> On Apr 11, 2014, at 5:59 PM, Scott Kitterman <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On Saturday, April 12, 2014 00:46:44 Franck Martin wrote:
>>>> On Apr 11, 2014, at 5:34 PM, Scott Kitterman <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, April 12, 2014 00:25:33 Franck Martin wrote:
>>>>>> On Apr 11, 2014, at 2:22 PM, Miles Fidelman
>> <[email protected]>
>>>>> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Has anybody here implemented Original-Authentication-Results and
>>>>>>> verified
>>>>>>> that it actually works with mail flowing from an author
>> @yahoo.com,
>>>>>>> through a (patched) mailing list manager, and on to: - the
>> original
>>>>>>> author @yahoo.com
>>>>>>> - someone else @yahoo.com
>>>>>>> - any of the other systems that respect Yahoo's p=reject policy?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> There have been experiments and an Internet-Draft but nothing
>> meaningful
>>>>>> deployed in production anywhere.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The DMARC faq has been updated to provide a bit more guidance.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Why is it better to add a new type of header field than to simply
>> add a
>>>>> new
>>>>> DKIM signature when forwarding that also signs the A-R fields
>> you've
>>>>> added.  If a receiver trusts the sender not to lie about O-A-R
>> fields,
>>>>> then I don't see not trusting the A-R fields they add.
>>>> 
>>>> 'Cause the AR RFC says to delete this header on reception… So it is
>> not a
>>>> header meant to survive forwarding…
>>> 
>>> No.  It doesn't.
>>> 
>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7001
>>> 
>>>> 5.  Removing Existing Header Fields
>>>> 
>>>>  For simplicity and maximum security, a border MTA could remove all
>>>>  instances of this header field on mail crossing into its trust
>>>>  boundary.  
>>> 
>>> The only ones you MUST delete  are ones the pretend to be from within
>> your 
>>> ADMD and are not.  It says you could remove all of them, but that
>> might cause 
>>> problems.
>>> 
>>> My reading of RFC 7001 is that exactly the use case being suggested
>> for O-A-R 
>>> is already addressed by A-R and so there's no need to re-invent the
>> wheel.
>>> 
>> Some known email appliances apply the "Simplicity and Maximum Security"
>> principle.
> 
> Okay.  So now that it's not "because RFC" it's "because existing 
> implementations".  Since no one implements O-AR now they'll have to change 
> something. Inventing a new header field only complicates things without 
> helping. 

But it separates problem spaces

> 
> Why would a receiver that removes all external AR fields because they are 
> considered risky not also remove O-AR too?

Cause it is a new header they don’t know about…

> 
> Personally I doubt either one helps much since they could only be useful from 
> known good senders and I suspect that once you have a list of such senders it 
> makes much more sense to skip DMARC entirely than to complicate things by 
> groveling through the header fields to figure out which ones they added.
> 
> That said, I don't see a valid reason to make up something new to do what AR 
> already does.
> 


indeed..

I don’t have much thought either way, just wondering about many A-R headers and 
DKIM signing (which ones were signed), and transitive trust….


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