I don't think this is the place to tell mailing lists what to do, and
that's all discussed in Section 4.1.3 of RFC 7960.

Barry

On Thu, Jul 6, 2023 at 11:48 AM Alessandro Vesely <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> the only issue I'd put about the new section is that it doesn't mention From:
> munging.  Isn't that practice widespread enough that it deserves being 
> considered?
>
>
> Best
> Ale
>
>
> On Thu 06/Jul/2023 16:55:02 +0200 Barry Leiba wrote:
> > I had some off-list discussions with Seth, who was very much against
> > my original proposed text, and he suggested an alternative
> > organization that would be more palatable to him.  I've attempted to
> > set that out below.  The idea is to remove the normative requirements
> > about using p=reject from Sections 5.5.6 and 5.8, and instead put a
> > broader discussion of the issues, along with the normative
> > requirements, into a new "Interoperability Considerations" section.
> > This makes it explicitly clear that any MUST/SHOULD stuff with regard
> > to using and honoring p=reject is an issue of interoperating with
> > existing Internet email features.  I can accept that mechanism also,
> > and so, below is my attempt at writing that proposal up.
> >
> > Barry
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > — Section 5.5.6 —
> >
> > ADD
> >     In making this decision it is important to understand the
> >     interoperability issues involved and problems that can result for
> >     mailing lists and for deliverability of legitimate mail. Those
> >     issues are discussed in detail in the Interoperability
> >     Considerations section [see Section x.x].
> > END
> >
> > — Section 5.8 —
> >
> > OLD
> >     Mail Receivers MAY choose to accept email that fails the DMARC
> >     mechanism check even if the published Domain Owner Assessment Policy
> >     is "reject".  In particular, because of the considerations discussed
> >     in [RFC7960], it is important that Mail Receivers SHOULD NOT reject
> >     messages solely because of a published policy of "reject", but that
> >     they apply other knowledge and analysis to avoid situations such as
> >     rejection of legitimate messages sent in ways that DMARC cannot
> >     describe, harm to the operation of mailing lists, and similar.
> > NEW
> >     Mail Receivers MAY choose to accept email that fails the DMARC
> >     mechanism check even if the published Domain Owner Assessment Policy
> >     is "reject".  In particular, because of the considerations discussed
> >     in [RFC7960] and in the Interoperability Considerations section of
> >     this document [see Section x.x], it is important that Mail Receivers
> >     not reject messages solely because of a published policy of "reject",
> >     but that they apply other knowledge and analysis to avoid situations
> >     such as rejection of legitimate messages sent in ways that DMARC
> >     cannot describe, harm to the operation of mailing lists, and similar.
> > END
> >
> > — New section —
> >
> > ADD
> > x.x Interoperability Considerations
> >
> >     As discussed in “Interoperability Issues between DMARC and Indirect
> >     Email Flows [RFC7960], use of p=reject can be incompatible with and
> >     cause interoperability problems to indirect message flows such as
> >     “alumni forwarders”, role-based email aliases, and mailing lists
> >     across the Internet.
> >
> >     Even a domain that expects to send only targeted messages to
> >     account holders — a bank, for example — could have account
> >     holders using addresses such as [email protected] (an
> >     address that relays the messages to another address with a real
> >     mailbox) or [email protected] (a role-based address that
> >     does similar relaying for the current head of finance at the
> >     association).  When such mail is delivered to the actual recipient
> >     mailbox, it will necessarily fail SPF checks, as the incoming
> >     IP address will be that of example.edu or association.example, and
> >     not an address authorized for the sending domain.  DKIM signatures
> >     will generally remain valid in these relay situations.
> >
> >        It is therefore critical that domains that publish p=reject
> >        MUST NOT rely solely on SPF, and MUST apply valid DKIM signatures
> >        to their messages.
> >
> >     Domains that have general users who send routine email are
> >     particularly likely to create interoperability issues if they
> >     publish p=reject.  For example, domains that serve as mailbox hosts
> >     and give out email addresses to the general public are best advised
> >     to delay adoption of p=reject until the authentication ecosystem
> >     becomes more mature and deliverability issues are better resolved.
> >
> >     In particular, if users in p=reject domains post messages to
> >     mailing lists on the Internet, those messages can cause operational
> >     problems for the mailing lists and for the subscribers to those
> >     lists, as explained below and in [RFC7960].
> >
> >        It is therefore critical that domains that host users who might
> >        post messages to mailing lists SHOULD NOT publish p=reject.
> >        Domains that choose to publish p=reject SHOULD implement
> >        policies that their users not post to Internet mailing lists.
> >
> >     As noted in [Section 5.8], receiving domains need to apply more
> >     analysis than just DMARC evaluation in their disposition of
> >     incoming messages.  An example of the consequences of honoring
> >     p=reject without further anaysis is that rejecting messages that
> >     have been relayed by a mailing list can cause your own users to
> >     have their subscriptions to that mailing list cancelled by the
> >     list software’s automated handling of such rejections — it looks
> >     to the list manager as though the recipient’s email address is no
> >     longer working, so the address is automatically unsubscribed.
> >
> >        It is therefore critical that receiving domains MUST NOT reject
> >        incoming messages solely on the basis of a p=reject policy by
> >        the sending domain.  Receiving domains must use the DMARC
> >        policy as part of their disposition decision, along with other
> >        knowledge and analysis.
> >
> >     Failure to understand and abide by these considerations can cause
> >     legitimate, sometimes important email to be rejected, can cause
> >     operational damage to mailing lists throughout the Internet, and
> >     can result in trouble-desk calls and complaints from your own
> >     employees, customers, and clients.
> > END
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmarc
>
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