On 17/11/18 at 13:14, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote: > Hi Katolaz, > > KatolaZ writes: > >> On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 11:45:03AM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: >> >> [cut] >> >>> OK, before we continue with a flame about what is wrong and what is >>> right: it seems that the transition to the merged usr is *not* >>> mandatory so far, but it is actually performed at install time. I am >>> currently trying to understand at which point during installation this >>> happens, so that we could just make it optional (i.e, with an opt-in >>> semantics). >> I should have waited a couple of minutes before writing: it looks like >> it is just an option in debootstrap. It should be fairly easy to make >> it optional by tweaking base-installer. Working on that. We will have >> it in the new beowulf installer. > This reminded me of something I did to build my Devuan Docker images: > passing --no-merged-usr to debootstrap. See > > https://gitlab.com/paddy-hack/devuan/blob/master/bootstrap.sh#L21 > > Just like */bin and */sbin are useful to distinguish between programs > intended for general use and system administration use, the distinction > between / and /usr is useful to tell critical and non-critical programs > apart.
How long before Free(lol)desktop decides that the separation between bin and sbin is so old-fashioned and useless to modern systems? [...] > Removing the distinction takes the option away from the user. Whether a > distribution wants to "pay the cost" of keeping this as an option for > their user base is the distribution's decision. The user base can vote > with its feet. Right, I subscribe to this point of view. And I also fully agree to everything stated below. > # The cost is in terms of having to think about what should go where for > # one's user base. As far as I can see the /usr merge is mostly just an > # attempt to get rid of the need to think. Pointing out that others did > # this already is lemming mentality. Saying that you need stuff in /usr > # anyway is blindly assuming it is needed in all cases or refusal to fix > # what your users consider to be a bug. > > I have / and /usr on the same file system on all of my machines but > still appreciate the fact that I have a choice. I like to keep it that > way. As for */bin and */sbin, the latter category is not in my PATH. I > also like to keep exercising that as an option. > > The idea of grouping certain classes of files in different directories > makes it just so much easier for homo sapiens to keep a grip on things. > Just imagine what / would look like if hardware progress would have > outpaced software developments in 1971. There would not have been any > need for /usr and we might have ended up with /games and /include and > /local and /share as well as /src. Actually, that doesn't look all bad > but I'm glad that the lack of disk space in 1971 helped us identify the > notion that there are critical and non-critical files on our computers. > > About that not looking all bad, perhaps the merge should be in the other > direction, from /usr to / rather than from / to /usr. Or can we expect > suggestions to move /var, /tmp, /dev, /run, /media etc. to /usr "because > all the stuff in /usr needs it anyway"? > > # Those are a non-serious suggestion and a rethorical question, in case > # that didn't come across. > > So, I'm against a *forced* /usr merge. I hope Debian does the right > thing but if necessary, I would like to see Devuan correct the wrong. > However, let's focus on init freedom (and beowulf) first! > > Hope this helps, > -- > Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2 FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 > GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 > Support Free Software https://my.fsf.org/donate > Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join > _______________________________________________ > Dng mailing list > [email protected] > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Alessandro Selli <[email protected]> VOIP SIP: [email protected] Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE
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