On Wed, 6 Jun 2001, Digital Z-Man wrote:
>> In fairness to you though, it isn't like someone would
>> accidentally stumble across it easily when it is buried 6 levels
>> deep.
>
>Maybe that should be relocated to a more visible spot, or a
>symlink to it in the rootdir? I guess you could 'find' it, but
>again, you kind of have to know what you are looking for.
A top level dir xc/docs would be where I would put it myself, but
I wouldn't want to see the xc/* dir cluttered.
>> I also applaud Matrox for their friendliness to open source, but
>> there still are no G450 docs available at least last time I
>> checked.
>
>There will be, when Matrox makes a new chipset, or it stands to reason,
>at least.
The G450 has Macrovision which they AFAIK can't release docs for
due to legal reasons. I don't see any reason why docs less the
Macrovision parts couldn't be released though.
>> If one is interested in becoming an XFree86 developer, it makes
>> sense to apply first, and at least _see_ the agreement before
>> commenting on it being some secret magic ring.
>
>I'll read the agreement, but your statement about "applying" to join
>the development team gives me the impression that there is a secret
>magic ring. Just my observation.
Well ok then, there is a secret ring. If you don't know the
magic handshake you're out...
Not worth debating really..
>> There is a project on sourceforge to create a new X server from
>> scratch. "linuxgfx"
>>
>> While it is a cool idea, it will take 10 years to complete.
>> XFree86 wont be sitting idle for that time. It is easy to say
>> "scrap XFree86", and I agree that it is a huge amount of code,
>> and that a lot of it is a mess, but nobody is going to just dump
>> it and start rewriting something from scratch all of a sudden
>> and start using it.
>
>Ok, maybe I was exaggerating a bit here...I meant scrap XFree86
>in its present form. Keep the server, the networking code, and 2D
>primitives. The fact that the newbie has to understand the X11 Server
>codebase IN ADDITION to the DRM tells me there's alot of coupling
>going on. Maybe this was done for the sake of efficiency, but it just
>makes the newcomer shun away from helping out.
Well personally, I'm happy working with the existing XFree86 code
even if it isn't perfect. It is functional and complete. It
will take a lot of work to replace all of what is there, and be
frought with new people making the same mistakes that have been
learned already by existing developers IMHO.
>> We are the largest Linux distributor out here, and we definitely
>> don't have the resources to put into something 1/100 the size of
>> such a project, even in combination with resources from many
>> other vendors. Not to mention that for such a project to be
>> truely successful, it would require a lot of talent from those
>> who have been doing this stuff for 15+ years. Those people are
>> unlikely to dump XFree86 and start a new project that has little
>> chance of getting off the ground.
>
>Aren't we tooting our own horn just a wee bit, here? ;o)
No, you misunderstand me. I'm just stating that such a project
would take a lot of manpower, and it just doesn't exist, nor is
the interest to do so.
>I'm glad that RH is blessed with so many capable developers, but
>remember that they need not shoulder the burden alone within
>the confines of the company. There's a bit of M$ mentality in
>this statement.
Not at all. There is zero M$ mentality. You just misunderstood
my statement. Red Hat developers + Mandrake developers + Debian
Developers plus SuSE developers + etc.. have their own jobs
already, and none of us could do this if we wanted to.
The real XFree86 experts are the VA/PI guys, and various other
souls on the lists. It doesn't make much sense to reinvent the
wheel when you don't know 100% how the wheel works and what it's
design flaws are.
I think the VA/PI/XFree86 guys do a fantastic job already. It
makes sense that those who know the most about this stuff will
contribute the most and shape the direction it goes. That is a
good thing I think.
>There are other people who can help. It's not just up to the
>(RH/VA/PI guys) to redesign XFree to be more modular wrt DRI.
Just to clarify something - I don't know why you group RH in the
above statement.. While we contribute to XFree86, it isn't
currently any major contribution worthy of special mention over
and above any other vendor or group. I am the sole person here
working on XFree86 specific stuff. Others help me out with fixes
for stuff, but we don't have an "XFree86 team" or anything like
that. David Miller contributes code to Mesa, and I believe the
DRI project also. Misc patches from here and there, but I'm not
currently doing any major work. Most of my work is packaging and
troubleshooting distribution issues, fixing bugs, etc.
I'm just clarifying that as I don't want people to think that we
have a bunch of XFree86 gurus that work full time on X.
>> Ever seen the Berlin project? Nice idea 6 years ago. Where is
>> it today though?
>
>It was at the 2000 Linux Conference in Ottawa, Canada...very
>interesting.
My point though is the barrier to deployment it faces, and
application availability. From the viewpoint of joe blow working
on code, other projects are appealing for technical reasons, and
funfactor. From the viewpoint of spending money/time/resources
on funding development of a particular project, starting
something from the ground up isn't appealing.
>> 329Mb+ of source code however doesn't get written overnight
>> though, so I'm skeptical as to how far it will get.
>
>No, but it's discouraging to hear you say that. I will look into
>linuxgfx...as soon as I get a good broadband connection ;0P
For me at least it is just a "fun to watch and see" thing. I
haven't been watching though. ;o) Personally I am quite happy
with the way the XFree86 team, and community is evolving X.
Older cruft is getting brushed under the carpet like XIE/PEX for
example, and new cool stuff is coming like the existing Xrender,
and future Xrandr extensions, etc. I would much rather see, and
be a part of this new stuff than reimplement that which exists
already, even if parts of the current system aren't the greatest.
I think each release of XFree86 is becoming eons better WRT
hardware support, speed, features, etc.. I think XFree86
weaknesses are best improved upon by discussing ideas with the
guys who breathe this stuff for a living. They will be the
bigest help IMHO.
I'd rather see someone start new projects to improve what is here
already, even replacing bits and pieces with all new
code/libraries, etc.. if motivated enough, at least then the
codebase is still fully functional unit to base from this way.
Not unlike the linux-kernel's development. The networking code
has been completely rewritten 3 or 4 times now... No sense
rewriting the whole kernel from scratch though. ;o)
Anyway, we're getting off topic now I fear so lets cut it short,
or reply via personal mail.
Take care!
TTYL
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike A. Harris Shipping/mailing address:
OS Systems Engineer 190 Pittsburgh Ave., Sault Ste. Marie,
Red Hat Inc. Ontario, Canada, P6C 5B3
http://www.redhat.com Phone: (705)949-2136
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Latest XFree86 test RPMS: ftp://people.redhat.com/mharris/testing
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