On 2/26/2010 9:59 PM, Woodrick, Ed wrote:
Hmmm, sounds like a number of people are unimpressed with your
perception that D-STAR isn't a big deal.
Ahh there you go making up things I didn't say again, Ed. Actually
making up stuff THEY didn't say either. Three people having two ID-1's
each, and one saying they'll buy a third ID-1, isn't exactly a quorum of
ham radio operators. But whatever...
D-STAR's a big deal for a very small population of radio users. Let me
know when NYPD installs it. Or AT&T, Verizon, Sprint, or any other
cellular carrier deploy it.. or Europe drops Tetra for it.
If you enjoy it great. Not a single soul outside of Amateur Radio gives
it the time of day. It's a protocol specifically designed for our radio
service and 100% non-interoperable. That's neither bad nor good, nor am
I passing judgement on it. It just "is".
I was stating that my entire two-way radio world doesn't revolve 100%
around Amateur Radio. Is that somehow an attack on D-STAR? No.
And by the way, your math is way off. I paid close to $3000 just for
the ID-1s, since I got some of the first batch before the price dropped.
And I didn't even mention the repeater in the basement, partial
ownership in another and the radios that my wife owns.
Hey, if I'm supposed to be impressed... okay. Whatever. In for a
penny, in for a pound. Good for you. :-)
So you're saying you're in for closer to $10K. At least we know where
you sit, before you tell us where you stand, right?
If I had $10K worth of gear I'd want D-STAR to take off in a big way, too.
I definitely never said it was bad for YOU buy that much D-STAR gear, I
said *I* couldn't cost-justify it. For me. You know, the guy behind
this keyboard whom you think is somehow bothering you because he isn't
*as* interested in your niche of the hobby as you are?
If you're finding yourself defensive about that statement, I can't help
you there. You read more into it than there really was.
Note, I own D-STAR rigs, and am interested. But not fanatical, nor do I
freak out when someone says something negative about it. I like trucks,
some people like sports cars. Few of us get to own them all. Big deal.
Lots of people think a lot more highly of D-STAR than you do. I know
of a number of people with more investment in D-STAR than I have.
So? Good for them.
People should do what they want with their disposable income. I do.
You do. Excellent. It's still a hobby, after all. I've probably spent
at least $10K on the Amateur Radio hobby over the years, too... but not
all on ONE technology. Never will unless $10K somehow miraculously
becomes a much smaller percentage of my income, by luck, skill, or
inheritance or you finally pay up on that one-million dollar ransom note
I sent last week when I decided to hold your IC-2800H hostage for cash. ;-)
You don't have to jump me every time I say "I'm not spending $3K on this
one small facet of our hobby..." and act like I'm some kind of terrible
guy who wants the death of D-STAR just for saying that.
Repeat after me: D-STAR is a hobby. D-STAR is a hobby. D-STAR is a hobby.
P25? The new one or the old one with radios that are currently being
junked? MotoTRBO? The "about as proprietary as you can get" solution?
I didn't mention the other protocols to start a discussion about their
good/bad points again, Ed. You're going there, not me.
I mentioned them very clearly as a complaint that all the two-way radio
world has done in going "digital" has created a Tower of Babel of
different protocols that require anyone who's serious about working with
various groups, to now have to have ALL of these technologies, instead
of ONE technology... called Analog FM.
Unlike you, I'm SERIOUSLY interested in ALL of them. Not just D-STAR.
Also Unlike you, I'm spending volunteer time in organizations who are
directed by the Federal Goverment to use P25 OUTSIDE the Ham Bands. So
I need ONE radio...
And I play in Amateur circles that do D-STAR... so I need TWO radios...
And I would LIKE to play with MotoTRBO both in Amateur and Commercial
circles... so I need THREE radios...
... where one worked in the past.
The chances that I would EVER spend $10K on a single protocol? Zero.
If you're doing that, great. Knock yourself out.
How does me saying I need two or three protocols turn into you thinking
I suddenly hate D-STAR, Ed? You're WAY too sensitive.
D-STAR has problems, so do they all. If it were on-topic, I'd happily
tell you all the things that are totally FUBAR in P25, and eventually
(if I decide to play in it) MotoTRBO too. They all kinda suck, really.
They just suck in different ways. ;-)
There's a point in every data guy's career where he learns that
protocols are expendable. I used to read traces of PPP over serial,
then I learned to read ISDN D-channel traces, now I read SIP traces.
They all accomplish the same goal, getting data from point A to point
B. That's all D-STAR does, too.
I learned long ago, that today's "hot" protocol/technology is
tomorrow's dead-end "old" tech that the new kids don't want to use.
Only the toughest and most usable standards survive. If that standard is
D-STAR on the Amateur bands, fine. I have a rig.
But I'm not going to OVER-invest in any particular one technology, and
then pretend it's all that much better than the others.
So which of these radios are field programmable? Heck, even user
programmable with a legally obtained programming cable and software?
(for under $500)
Actually all of them, these days. Maybe not certain manufacturers, but
P25 rigs with field-programmable from the keypad feature-sets do exist
(I have one), and as far as Motorola?
Of *course* MotoTRBO is proprietary! No one's surprised by that in the
slightest, are they? Motorola has been playing that game since the
60's. They also have NOT gone under, while doing it, because they often
(like Apple) design and control the hardware and software so well, that
it does a better job at whatever they put their engineer's minds to.
Again, no biggie and no offense meant to anyone buying D-STAR rigs...
You seem to get very defensive when other technologies are even
*mentioned* around you, Ed. Not sure why. Protocols are protocols and
there will be even more of them, judging by what the wireline computer
industry has "accomplished" in the last 10 years.
Have you seen the number of CODEC's available for H.323
videoconferencing lately for both audio and video RTP?
Compare where wireline is compared to RF digital. Hell, compare
cellular. They're way ahead of 2-way.
It's the same learning/technology curve, and 2-way is one of the LAST
tech sectors to FINALLY start playing in this arena. Anyone who's been
doing computer networking for 20 years, has seen this arc/storyline
coming, many years ago. (Hum a few bars of "We've only just begun" and
I'll fake it.)
Example: My employer just announced another new compression CODEC that
cuts the bandwidth requirement for an HD video signal for the same
quality by HALF what it takes to do it today... think that can't happen
to D-STAR? Look over the NTIA bandwidth recommendations for 2012, if
you don't believe we're "going there"...
I point out, that the *same things* that have happened already in
wireline and cellular, will happen sooner or later to 2-way. All it
takes is one company deciding to pony up enough cash to kick DVSI out of
their monopoly and partner with a radio manufactuer.
DVSI's choke-hold on the 2-way radio world won't last forever. IMBE and
AMBE are great, but there's a math whiz kid out there right now dreaming
up a way to make them look old and useless, sooner than we all think.
One truism has held solid my entire technical career: The day a
technology is created, it's already outdated.
D-STAR (and everything else) will have a good run in Amateur Radio, no
doubt. We hams are the historians of the airwaves and we NEVER let a
mode die, even if there's better ways to communicate. So don't fret
your investment.
Even those of us not willing to match it, can still talk to you with our
$300 radios. (Just like in Analog FM repeaters, the repeater
infrastructure is really the important part. User radios are just
access points to the infrastructure...) D-STAR will be here forever,
just like CW, SSB, and whatever else. Heck, I bet there's someone out
there still running a CONVERS box on J-NOS, somewhere...
For me, it's all about Fun-per-Dollar. $350, I can talk on D-STAR. Or,
$1000 I can talk on D-STAR and have 128K of bandwidth on an Ethernet
jack, and not even at the same time. (ID-1) Guess which one I'll
choose, every time?
That shouldn't offend anyone who has a legitimate reason to want the
ID-1's technology. I'm just not interested.
Do you know how many different commercial options (including satellite)
there are -- for getting that tiny bandwidth -- that aren't limited to
non-commercial, non-encrypted packets?! $650 goes a long way, these
days. And might as well throw in the money for the low-loss
coax/hardline for 1.2 GHz, and the antenna costs up-front (most hams
don't own a 1.2 GHz yagi), etc.
Typing "https://"; into a browser and going to an SSL enabled website is
technically illegal in the U.S. via an ID-1 -- and thus, quite
ironically, accessing a D-STAR Gateway server's web pages over D-STAR
radios... illegal...
So... that isn't worth a $650 delta to me. If it is to you, that's fine
by me. Don't care.
I find it weird that you think I'm attacking D-STAR. I use it; I don't
hate it. I just don't care in the slightest if it "wins" in the
long-term, because there will always be something better every few
years. If Icom wants to start paying me to be a salesperson, I can
pitch all the good stuff and ignore the bad stuff, like all the rest of 'em.
Technology marches on. And even when it does, someone will want my used
D-STAR rig -- someone who hasn't tried it out yet. And dedicated
repeater operators will maintain their gear indefinitely, or at least
until they die... like they always have.
Nate WY0X
