Yeah, that's what I thought... Groucho was actually a very smart man, wasn't
he?

Let's just say that there's a certain expatriate YL ham who has a very
definite opinion on QSL'ing.  Just search eHam.net for the term.  All I can
say is that this is one of those threads that I now wish I had stayed out
of...

Trying to show someone the "right" or "traditional" way to do things does
have it's pitfalls.  All we can do is offer to help and lead by example.

And on that thought... not trying to stray from the subject, but just keep
this in mind when we start seeing the influx of new-to-HF hams in the next
few weeks and months:  Griping won't change things, they're here to stay.
So either we lead by example, or we seriously risk watching HF descend into
the chaos of a self-fullfilled prophecy based on our worst fears of a
certain other radio service.  Our choice;  personally, I'd rather lead by
example.

73

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf
Of Jerry Keller
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 8:37 PM
To: (Reflector) DX-CHAT
Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] DX who QSL or not


What's the "QSL Mafia"?  How does one join?  Wait, never mind.... any group
that would let me in isn't one worth joining....

Presuming to tell others the "right way" to behave is always a path with
many pitfalls.  The best way to pass on traditions and values is to always
try to observe them yourself (be an example) and... whenever possible....
take the opportunity to politely draw attention to them if you can do so
without making someone feel or look bad.  It's a difficult, slippery
slope.... but that's the only alternative I see.  It's the same approach I
take with my grandkids, and it remains to be seen how well it will work, but
it feels like the right way to go about it.

No matter what we do, things will change. We shouldn't fight that, it's only
natural, but perhaps some of the old values and traditions can be
incorporated into the new ways and preserved for a while.

73, Jerry K3BZ

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Notarius W3WN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "(Reflector) DX-CHAT" <dx-chat@njdxa.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 6:58 PM
Subject: RE: [DX-CHAT] DX who QSL or not


> Well Jerry, until recently, I never knew I was a member of the "QSL Mafia"
> either... thank goodness THAT thread on eHam fell off the radar.
>
> I think we have a few things in play here.  First, we seem to have
> something
> of a breakdown in the last few years of the passing on of traditions --
> not
> everywhere, certainly, but in some areas.  And it's not just with QSL'ing,
> but with many other facets of the amateur service.  The cause?  Simple.
> As
> licensing has become simpler and easier -- and let's NOT spin off into
> THAT
> tangent, please -- you have more and more self-taught hams becoming
> active,
> without the benefit of an Elmer, or a class or club to help them out and
> give some pointers.  So, they learn the hard way (if they learn) -- on the
> air.  It will only get worse under current rules.  In these cases, all we
> can do is try and Elmer these folks as best we can -- they're making
> honest
> mistakes, so it's up to us to teach them.  We'll end up with better hams
> for
> it.
>
> Second, there has been some fundamental shifts in the perceptions and
> mechanisms of QSL'ing that I've seen in the past 35+ years since first
> being
> licensed.  We've gone from the days where almost every ham (not all,
> granted) QSL'd -- at least on request -- to the days where it's looked on
> as
> an obsolete chore by a significant minority (a notion I disagree with,
> even
> as I observe it).  We've gone from the days where sending a card via the
> bureau for most DX contacts was almost a forgone conclusion, to the days
> where there are so many QSL managers available (not that that's a bad
> thing,
> I hasten to add!) that the bureaus have become a second-class system.  To
> say nothing of managers who refuse to use the bureau, usually due to
> costs.
>
> Third, and related to that, we've gone from the days where a green stamp
> sent with a QSL request was usually a nice gesture (otherwise your card
> went
> back via the bureau) to the days where some DX stations and managers
> demand
> two or three or more green stamps or IRC's or no card.  The nice gesture,
> to
> offer to help cover postage costs, is now expected or mandatory.
>
> And related to that, there are many who now expect that their green stamps
> or IRC's somehow entitle them to a card... full color, thank you, and
> right
> now!  Makes you wonder sometimes how the really good QSL managers still
> have
> any hair, and why it hasn't turned grey or white yet (from the abuse that
> is, I'm speaking metaphorically not literally here!)  Heck, just look at
> all
> the grief that KU9C to pick on one had to put up with while he was waiting
> for the YX0 cards to come from the printers, delays completely beyond his
> control.  I'd swear that there were more than a few ready to turn Steve in
> for mail fraud because they hadn't gotten their card back in 3 or 4 weeks
> after the DXpedition ended!  Unreasonable?  Yup -- and that's the point.
>
> Now, I'm sure that there are many on the list who can counter each of
> these
> reasons as "it's always been that way, you just never noticed."  True, but
> my observation is that these types of behavior have gone from a very tiny
> minority to a very significant fraction.
>
> Are things better?  Are they worse?  Or are they just different?
>
> 73, ron w3wn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf
> Of Jerry Keller
> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 5:02 PM
> To: Larry, K4WLS
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; (Reflector) DX-CHAT
> Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] DX who QSL or not
>
>
> It is not the cash that "requires" the return of a QSL, it is custom and
> respect for tradition that require it. The cash is incidental and intended
> only to help with expenses. Most DX stations have received QSLs with cash
> for QSOs not found in the log... custom and tradition requires a response
> to
> those as well... Not In Log.... the expenses of returning a QSL or a NIL
> are
> the same.
> Until this recent thread, I would have said this simple truth is
> understood
> by everyone in the DX community, but apparently not.  The mind boggles....
> 73, Jerry K3BZ
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Larry, K4WLS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Charles Harpole" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <dx-chat@njdxa.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 4:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] DX who QSL or not
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charles Harpole" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 11:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] DX who QSL or not
>
>
> When I receive cash in a qsl request, I thank the sender silently and
> accept
> this donation to my effort to return qsls.  Personally, I feel honor bound
> to reply to those with cash and those without.  BUT, I do not think this
> idea should automatically apply to other people.
>
> My point is that one can not have it both ways.... that is, one can not
> send
> money as a gift* and at the same time expect that the presence of money
> REQUIRES a response.  To think it requires a return, means you are
> ordering
> a qsl ... as any mail order from any vendor of a product... which is
> basically the act of purchase.  How can it be otherwise--- if one sends
> $$$
> with the expection of a return?  I still maintain that to avoid the idea
> of
> a purchase, the cash sent must be a donation... a free gift with no
> strings
> attached, and can not be otherwise, rationally.  A "bribe" is payment to
> do
> something not legal and thus this word does not apply in this matter
> because
> these are not matters of law breaking.
>
> *even if the cash is only meant to cover the sender's expenses, that seems
> to me to be like the "free" products businesses offer to send to you if
> only
> you will pay for the postage and handling..... sounds same to me.
>
> Thanks for your ideas, too..........  73
>
> Charles Harpole
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----------------------
>
> I use nested envelopes for QSL requests, plain white for state-side and
> international air mail for overseas. I always fill out the return envelope
> with the recipients full address in the upper left-hand corner and my
> address in large print in the middle. For overseas, always remember to
> include USA below your address on the return envelope.
>
> For state-side I affix a first class stamp, and for overseas the correct
> denomination of stamps (air-mail) for the particular country involved.
> This is on my return envelope.
>
> For envelopes sent to mgrs of DX stations in a contest, I always send
> $2.00 in greenbacks with a sticky pad attached saying "to help with
> QSL card costs". For envelopes sent to DX stations, in addition to
> my pre-addressed and pre-stamped return envelope, I either enclose
> 2 IRC's with note "for your QSL needs", or $ 2.00 in greenbacks and
> a note "to help with your QSL costs". I avoid sending cash to those
> countries that have strict mail customs rules, or where mail theft is a
> problem. 425 DX News, QRZ DX, The Daily/Weekly DX, etc is a
> source of this info.
>
> Since getting back on the air in 1994, my QSL return rate has been 100 %
> using this method. There have been times that I have had to send another
> such QSL request and a note saying I sent you you a card on such a
> date and did you get it. An example of this was an XV5 and a TU2. The
> replies in all these instances was "Sorry, I didn't get your card".
>
> International mail does get lost or stolen. A C9 or TR8 with a good
> signal to the west coast can work a slew of W5, W6, and W7 stns.
> Most likely, he needs none of these cards, but he will sure get a lot
> of requests for his card. Remember, he has to pay for the cost of
> these cards, take the time to answer the cards, and exchange the IRC's
> for stamps. I always try to make it very easy for the DX stn to answer
> my QSL requests, and that is why I use pre-addressed and pre-stamped
> return envelopes.  My ideas !                     73/DX,  Larry - K4WLS
>
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> http://njdxa.org
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>
> Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems
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>
> This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA
> http://njdxa.org
>
> Subscribe/unsubscribe, feedback, FAQ, problems
> http://njdxa.org/dx-chat
>
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>
> This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA
> http://njdxa.org
>


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