Don's talk was about the incredible costs and the UP FRONT MONEY that is required BEFORE the Antarctic DXpeditions leave home, NOT about any money needed/required for QSLing. IF you divide the total cost by the number of Q's, historically it has been just shy of $5/Q. It will be MORE in the future!
If you know of a banker that will loan $500,000 for a DXpedition, who doesn't charge interest and might get most of it back years later, PLEASE let DXpedition leaders know! Even the mega-mega Dxpeditions never see $40-45,000 in QSL income, which isn't even a "deposit for the deposit!" ....and it is after the fact. The take home point: There has never been a time when your contributions/memberships to organizations like NCDXF, INDEXA and your DX Club have been more important. 73 Glenn W0GJ -----Original Message----- From: kf...@njdxa.org [mailto:kf...@njdxa.org] On Behalf Of Crownhaven Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 6:21 AM To: Joe Subich, W4TV Cc: dx-chat Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS? When was the last time a DX operation was disqualified for QSLing practices? Seriously. Steve, N4JQQ Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: > > On 5/20/2012 9:14 PM, Crownhaven wrote: > > >> However, any operator has the right to set his own rules for QSL >> cards, etc. And the rest of us have a choice as to whether we want to >> abide by those terms. > > Absolutely not! No operator has a right to discriminate in his QSL > policy or hold the QSL "hostage" in return for a "contribution" in > excess of the cost of mailing that QSL. To do so is de facto grounds > for disqualification under DXCC Rules (12 d): > >> d) Blatant inequities in confirmation (QSL) procedures. Continued >> refusal to issue QSLs under certain circumstances may lead to >> disqualification. > > Any large DXpedition can - and should - seek individual contributions > before the operation. I would argue that they have a right to cancel > an operation if the support goals have not been met. However, the > policy of not uploading logs to LotW for six months or a year after a > DXPedition, not sending bureau QSLs for six months to a year after a > DXPedition and policies of not mailing QSLs to non-contributors until > after the end of the calendar year should be loudly and roundly > denounced. > > Given the ease of uploading QSOs to LotW - after all it is no more > difficult in uploading the raw logs to ClubLog daily which has become > standard practice for most major DXpeditions - there is *no* valid > reason for not uploading the raw logs immediately after the operation > if not daily during the operation. > > 73, > > ... Joe, W4TV > > > On 5/20/2012 9:14 PM, Crownhaven wrote: >> >> I'm thinking we all can make the choices we want to make. In terms of >> DXpeditions costing a lot of money, if you can't take the heat, stay >> out of the kitchen?????? However, any operator has the right to set >> his own rules for QSL cards, etc. And the rest of us have a choice as >> to whether we want to abide by those terms. Let's call it free >> enterprise. We're beginning to sound like........I won't say it here. >> >> Steve, N4JQQ >> >> Zack Widup wrote: >>> >>> First off, great presentation Don! >>> >>> I thought it gave a great perspective of what these "icebreaker" >>> DXpeditions and others to exotic places cost. Someone has to pay for >>> them. The operators on some DXpeditions often bear a great deal of >>> the cost themselves. I know a few people who have gotten involved in >>> a DXpedition without knowing what it would cost them personally. >>> They put forth an amount of money that hurt them personally >>> financially, hoping they could get at least some of it back. Some >>> didn't - they have not been on a DXpedition since. Live and learn, I >>> guess. And our loss when a fine operator can't or won't go on another >>> DXpedition. >>> >>> I know some of the people who were on the VP8ORK DXpedition. Some of >>> the fees they had to pay were downright weird - and sounded >>> exorbitant to me. But what are you going to do? Refuse to pay a fee >>> to get your equipment out of storage? You would be in a bad position >>> thousands of miles from home, trying to meet an expedition timetable >>> and unable to speak the language of the country, trying to negotiate >>> with those people. >>> >>> If you want the DXpedition, if you want it there for you to work, it >>> seems only right to me that you voluntarily contribute what you can. >>> Not that it has to be $5 per QSO, but every little bit helps. >>> >>> None of the DXpeditions I wished to have confirmed recently have >>> demanded any fees for QSL'ing. But I do voluntarily send them >>> something. I hope it helps just a little. If enough people do that, >>> it increases the chance that they will go on another DXpedition to a >>> rare place in a few years. >>> >>> And I agree - if the DXpedition so chooses to send out confirmation >>> to contributors first, that is their choice and it doesn't mean that >>> non-contributors are not going to get their confirmation. If you had >>> to wait for 20 years for an entity to be put on the air, what's a >>> couple extra months waiting for the confirmation? >>> >>> 73, Zack W9SZ >>> >>> >>> On 5/20/12, Don Greenbaum <d...@aurumtel.com> wrote: >>>> Who is demanding any fees for a QSL? >>>> >>>> Name one DXpedition that refuses to answer bureau cards? Or a major >>>> DXPedition that doesn't post their logs to LOTW (most within 6 >>>> months). >>>> Most foundations require that in return for funding. >>>> >>>> Just because someone who donates $5 gets his card first does not >>>> translate into extortion for those who opt out of supporting >>>> dxpeditions and wait for the slow method. >>>> >>>> 73 >>>> >>>> Don >>>> N1DG >>>> >>>> At 06:45 PM 5/20/2012, Don wrote: >>>>> Go or don't go. But demanding a fee for a qsl is still extortion >>>>> in the >>>>> true sense of the term >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPod >>>>> >>>>> On May 20, 2012, at 6:31 PM, "Ron Notarius W3WN" <wn3...@verizon.net> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Lou, >>>>>> >>>>>> Once again, context is important. >>>>>> >>>>>> Don's presentation was not talking about the casual DXpedition that >>>>>> might >>>>>> cost one or two people a few thousand. Yes, this was mentioned, >>>>>> but it >>>>>> was not the main focus. >>>>>> >>>>>> And within THAT context only, if I can't afford to go on a >>>>>> vacation to >>>>>> the Caribbean that happens to include a radio op for $5K, I'm not >>>>>> going >>>>>> to go either. If I do go, I'm not going to expect to recoup my >>>>>> vacation >>>>>> costs from those who worked me, either. >>>>>> >>>>>> But -- that's not what the main focus here is. >>>>>> >>>>>> You're not going to Heard Island, or Bouvet, or Navassa, or Baker & >>>>>> Howland, etc., for $5000 either. Between logistics, licensing, boat >>>>>> chargers, food & fuel, you're talking in the neighborhood (today) of >>>>>> US$500,000. >>>>>> >>>>>> Don's plea, as I recall (and Don, please correct me if I'm wrong) >>>>>> was >>>>>> that the DX community as a whole, world-wide, find a way to >>>>>> continue to >>>>>> fund these trips. Or they will stop, and the rarest of the rare >>>>>> will be >>>>>> off the air for decades to come. >>>>>> >>>>>> The cost-per-QSO breakdown simply gives you, or should give you, an >>>>>> appreciation for what was involved. It was not meant (at least as I >>>>>> heard it) as a suggestion that this should be a mandatory minimum >>>>>> amount >>>>>> that you should include along with your QSL request. >>>>>> >>>>>> Don also had a comment that more should join their local DX >>>>>> associations, >>>>>> societies, foundations, etc., in order to strengthen those >>>>>> organizations, >>>>>> and permit THEM to continue to help fund future super-rare >>>>>> operations. >>>>>> Let's not let that get lost in the discussion either. >>>>>> >>>>>> The bottom line is that we as a community simply can't expect >>>>>> others to >>>>>> go to these places that we seek to contact purely for the thrill >>>>>> of a >>>>>> pileup. Because when the costs to go far outstrip the means of the >>>>>> operating team, they won't be able to go whether they want the >>>>>> thrill or >>>>>> not. >>>>>> >>>>>> 73 >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: kf...@njdxa.org [mailto:kf...@njdxa.org] On Behalf Of Mecseri >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 4:11 PM >>>>>> To: li...@w2irt.net >>>>>> Cc: dx-chat@njdxa.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] DX-PEDITIONS FOR US POOR FOLKS? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -pjd is making a valid point, but......... >>>>>> >>>>>> On the other side of the coin, how can you put a price on the >>>>>> thrill of >>>>>> being on the receiving end of a huge pileup for a week or >>>>>> two???????. >>>>>> If it cost me $5,000 to go to a Dx Expedition, I would not >>>>>> compute my >>>>>> cost per contact. If I would have to, I should not be going...... >>>>>> >>>>>> Just my 2cents worth >>>>>> >>>>>> Lou KE1F >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/20/2012 3:47 PM, Peter W2IRT wrote: >>>>>>> Ryan hit the nail on the head, gents. Please download and analyze >>>>>>> Don's >>>>>>> PowerPoint presentation when it becomes available on the site. >>>>>>> There are >>>>>>> two facts that become blatantly obvious. One, the cost-per-QSO >>>>>>> incurred >>>>>>> by the DXpeditions to bring you that rare on is very high. In some >>>>>>> cases, the cost they bear to bring you that new one is over >>>>>>> $5.00 USD >>>>>>> PER CONTACT. In other less-difficult-to-get-to places it's in >>>>>>> the $3 >>>>>>> range. So those who toss $2 or an IRC into the envelope and >>>>>>> nothing more >>>>>>> are putting more of the burden on your fellow hams. This is not >>>>>>> sustainable as prices to put these operations on increase. I can >>>>>>> see it >>>>>>> if you work a guy once or twice, request a bureau card or wait out >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> LoTW hit or toss a couple of bucks into an envelope. It's not >>>>>>> right if >>>>>>> you picked up 20 greenies on Clublog. Sorry. They're not telling >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> that you have to *pay* $5 or $3 per Q, but that's what THEY HAVE >>>>>>> SPENT >>>>>>> to bring you the chance. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The second issue is that certain parts of the world are more >>>>>>> readily >>>>>>> willing to lend financial support through QSL-request donations >>>>>>> than >>>>>>> other parts of the world. I didn't take notes during Don's >>>>>>> presentation >>>>>>> but I'm pretty sure the European donation percentage was >>>>>>> infinitesimally >>>>>>> small as compared to the NA donation base (again, as averaged over >>>>>>> 20-odd years by major DXpeditions). Less-than-1% if memory >>>>>>> serves--Don, >>>>>>> if I'm wrong, please feel free to beat me about the head with a >>>>>>> large >>>>>>> abacus. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regardless of the exact percentages, it's irresponsible and >>>>>>> outright >>>>>>> selfish to sit there and work these big-league ops and not toss >>>>>>> something into the hat not as a way to say thank you (which is a >>>>>>> great >>>>>>> gesture in and of itself) but as a way to ensure they'll be able to >>>>>>> commit to going to that one place you need that'll put you over >>>>>>> the top >>>>>>> and into the Honor Roll or to HR#1, maybe. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you're so poor that you can't afford $10 or $20 a couple of >>>>>>> times a >>>>>>> year, when you've bagged a biggie across a bunch of bands and >>>>>>> modes, >>>>>>> then there's something wrong and I definitely think you should >>>>>>> reconsider your choice of hobby, or your desire to be a DXer. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yeah, there are DXpeditions that I work once or twice and I'll >>>>>>> send an >>>>>>> SASE or an IRC or even request a bureau card for. These are >>>>>>> nominally >>>>>>> the ones I worked just 'cuz they were there and I thought "gee, >>>>>>> it's >>>>>>> been a couple of years since I worked<entity> on<band>." But if >>>>>>> it's >>>>>>> something I spend 2 weeks chasing up and down the spectrum, damned >>>>>>> straight I'll toss at least $10-25 into the hat, maybe more if >>>>>>> money's >>>>>>> not as big an issue as it is now. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - pjd >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: kf...@njdxa.org [mailto:kf...@njdxa.org] On Behalf Of Ryan >>>>>>> Jairam >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't begrudge a DXpedition for asking for a few $ or € to covver >>>>>>> their costs. It's your choice to work them. It may not fit >>>>>>> someone's >>>>>>> definition of "ham spirit" but I also understand that without the >>>>>>> donations, many rare entities wouldn't be activated. It's just >>>>>>> how it >>>>>>> is. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Some hams spend more than just money - they risk life and limb, >>>>>>> just so >>>>>>> you can get a QSO in the log. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ryan, N2RJ >>>>>>> >>> >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to >>> >>> imail...@njdxa.org >>> In the message body put either >>> unsubscribe dx-chat >>> >>> or >>> subscribe dx-chat >>> >>> This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org >>> ----------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to >> >> imail...@njdxa.org >> In the message body put either >> unsubscribe dx-chat >> >> or >> subscribe dx-chat >> >> This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org >> ----------------------------------------------------------- >> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org ----------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to imail...@njdxa.org In the message body put either unsubscribe dx-chat or subscribe dx-chat This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org -----------------------------------------------------------
