At 13:16 10/13/96 +0800, Kylie Matthews wrote:
>
>>re: hunting, etc. I'm surprised that you disagree with the claim that
>>men are biologically-inclined (note: not -determined-) to be
>>aggressive.
>
>Why? Any argument that women and men are biologically different rather
>than socially different can lead too easily to domination of one over the
>subordination of the other. This was essential in the domination of women
>over the centuries.
Hmmmmmmm ... but males and females *are* biologically different. The
hormonal differences (which may be linked in some ways to differing
levels of aggression) and the ability to give/or not give birth are
the most obvious ones.
Both the biological and social differences between men and womyn
*have* led to the domination of womyn over the centuries, but that
still does not mean there are not bio. differences. What we need
to do is instead examine how these factors interact rather than
try to say there's no difference between the sexes, or genders,
and write it all off as completely and totally social. As much
as I would like to believe it is all social, I am reminded of
several friends who are female to male transsexuals. They did
become markedly more aggressive as the male hormones began to
take hold.
female/male=biological
womyn/man=social role, gender role
>Can still be due to socialisation. It is certainly linked with domination.
This is a part of the picture, tho' not all of it.
>I think you misunderstood my point here. It was meant to be sarcastic. To
>point out how ridiculous it is to teach a religious view in a science
>class.
For the most part I agree with you here, but I do think there are
some things to be learned from a spiritual standpoint where science
and ecology are concerned. It has been postulated that one of the
problems with science and the damage that has resulted from it--to
the environment--is a direct result of its mechanistic world view.
.......... Moonshadow
P.s. I will be away for approx. a week beginning later this morning
(Sunday 13th) ... so I will reply to further posts when I get back
--
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"When a woman seriously asks herself what it |
means to be a woman she is pulling at a | <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
thread that can unravel an entire culture." | <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| http://www.persephone.org/
Kim Chernin - "Reinventing Eve" |
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>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Oct 13 11:30:42 1996
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 10:30:31 -0700
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Lori <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ishmael by Daniel Quinn
In response to candi churchill's comments about Ishmael (Daniel Quinn) and
Kylie's response:
Hi- my name is Lori...I have been lurking for a few weeks...and I had some
comments re: Ishmael that I felt compelled to respond to.
This book was life-changing for me...previously, I was a pre-med. student
and was taking my sciences and math requirements over again (I'm in my
mid-thirties)...and by chance, was reading this book during a Biology
class...wow, it succinctly explains the way things have come about in the world.
What was even more compelling for me was to read the follow up book,
Providence, by Daniel Quinn, which explains how the author came to write
Ishmael. I would love to recommend both books to all of you. I recommended
it to my biology professor (I bought her a book) and, after she read it, now
requires all of her students to read it.
At 01:16 PM 10/13/96 +0800, you wrote:
>>just some comments related to the issue that candi chruchill brought up
>>recently:
>>
>>this summer i read a book entitled ISHMAEL by daniel quinn which i
>>recommend to everyone, and there was a story in it about how the gods
>>acquired the knowledge they needed to rule the world. it goes something
>>like this:
>>one day the gods were administrating the world in the usual way, when one
>>of them said "here's a spot i've been thinking about for a while -- a
>>wide, pleasant savannah. let's send a great multitude of locusts into
>>this land. then the fire of life will grow prodigiously in them and in
>>the birds and lizards that will feed on them, and that will be very fine."
>>the others thought about this and one said "...the fire of life will blaze
>>in the locusts and the creatures that feed on them, but at the expense of
>>all the other creatures that live there." and they decided not to do it
>>so things went on as before. but then another god said "surely this would
>>be as great a crime as the other. for don't the locusts and the birds and
>>the liszards live in our hands as well as the rest? is it never to be
>>their time to flourish greatly, as others do?" the gods looked down and
>>saw a quail stalking a grasshopper and a fox stalking the quail. they
>>realized that if they let the fox get the quail, both the fox and the
>>grasshopper would bless the gods, but the quail would curse them. this
>>was a situation with no easy answer. well, time went on, and the gods
>>were sinking right into the slough of despond when one said "say, didn't
>>we make for the garden a certain tree whose fruit is the knowledge of good
>>and evil?" "yes!" cried the others, "let's find that tree and eat of it
>>and see what this knowledge is!" so they did. soon, a lion went out to
>>hunt, and the gods said to themselves, "today is the lion's day to go
>>hungry, and the deer it would have taken may live another day." and so
>>the lion missed it's kill, and as it was returning hungry to its den it
>>began to curse the gods. but they said, "be at peace, for we know how to
>>rule the world, and today is your day to go hungry." and the lion was at
>>peace. the next day the gods allowed the lion to catch the deer, and the
>>deer was at peace since the gods told him that yesterday was his day to
>>live,and today his day to die. so the gods acquired the knowledge of who
>>shall live and who shall die. the story goes on by one god giving a
>>"hypothetical" situation of what would happen if adam ate from the tree of
>>good and evil. now, in reality, the fruit of this tree would not have any
>>effect on adam, him being a mere mortal, but this is what would happen if
>>he IMAGINED he had acquired the knowledge of good and evil:
>>in his arrogance he (adam) might look around the garden and say to himself
>>"this is all wrong. why should i have to share the fire of life with all
>>these creatures? look here, the lions and the wolves take the game i would
>>have for myself. this is evil. i will kill all these creatures, and this
>>will be good. and look here, the gods have set a limit on my growth just
>>as they've set a limit on the growth of all others. this is evil. i will
>>grow without limit, taking all the fire of life that flows through this
>>garden into myself and that will be good." "if this should happen," said
>>the other gods, "adam would devour the world in a single day, and at the
>>end of that day he would devour himself." "this is true," said the
>>god,"but then would he not go on to escape from this world and devour the
>>entire universe?" "but might he not be tempted by his yearning for growth
>>to take the fire of life into his own hands even without deluding himself
>>that this was good?" protested the other gods. "he might. but what would
>>be the result? he would become a criminal, and a murderer of the creatures
>>around him. without the delusion that what he is doing is good, and
>>therefore done at any cost, he would soon tire of the criminal's life.
>>but because he has eaten of the tree of knowledge, he will say, 'i know
>>good and evil, and this way of living is good. therefore i must live this
>>way even though i'm weary unto death, even though i destroy the world and
>>even myself. the gods wrote in the world a law for all to follow, but it
>>cannot apply to me because i am their equal. therefore i will live
>>outside this law and grow without limit. to be limited is evil. i will
>>steal the fire of life from the hands of the gods and heap it up for my
>>growth, and that will be good. i will destroy those kinds that do not
>>serve my growth, and that will be good. i will wrest the garden from the
>>hands of the gods and order it anew so that it serves only my growth, and
>>that will be good. and because these things are good, they must be done
>>at any cost. it may be that i will destroy the garden and make a ruin of
>>it. it may be that my progeny will teem over the earth like locusts,
>>stripping it bare, until they drown in their own filth and hate the very
>>sight of one another and go mad. still they must go on, becuse to grow
>>without limit is good and to accept the limits of the law is evil. and
>>when at last all the garden has been subjugated to my use and all kinds
>>that do not serve my growth have been cast aside and all the fire of life
>>in the world flows through my progeny, still i must grow. and when they
>>can grow no more, the people of this land will fall upon the poeple of the
>>next to murder them, so that they may grow still more, and when the groans
>>of my progeny fill the air throughout the world, i will say to them, "your
>>sufferings must be borne, for you suffer in the cause of good. see how
>>great we have become! wielding the knowledge of good and evil, we have
>>made ourselves the masters of the world, and the gods have no power over
>>us. though your groans fill the air, isn't it sweeter to live in our own
>>hands than in the hands of the gods?....."'"
>>
>>something to think on.....
>>
>>
>
>I really enjoyed this story, thankyou. I think it really shows what
>capitalism and blind market force can do.
>
>Kylie
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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