Peter Wright and Christine Laurence wrote:
>
> At 09:55 AM 28/08/97 +1000, you wrote:
> >Will Bason wrote:
>
> >> Lots of women who have never had children are wonderful, deep and mature
> beings.
> >
> Lee (?) wrote:
>
> >To be sure, but all the childless women I can think of that I know lack
> >the maturity and selflessness of a mother. Some have cats as
> >substitutes, but "mothering" a pet does not have the same effect. If a
> >mother is selfish, her child will not let her rest, she has no choice
> >but to fulfill their needs and to watch them tirelessly lest they injure
> >themselves or be abducted or abused by some (usually male) fiend. And if
> >her child is unhappy, she (typically) cannot let herself rest.
>
> Lee, as a childless woman, who is assisting in raising three nephews, I
> find it a little bit hard to take your assertion I lack maturity and
> sefllessness.
>
> By generalisaing that 'all' mothers are good and 'all' childless women are
> immature and selfish you deny other people's experiences and ways of
> living, and condemn them.
>
> You try to say that your experience and ways of understanding are the only
> *right* ways - ending up "playing at being the rulers of the universe"
>
> Christine
Gosh Lee! You just make me want to lactate! I am amazed that you are
able to discount the experiences of all the motherless women in the
world by analyzing your personal cirlce of friends. To suggest that
motherless women are any less mature or selfless than their maternal
counterpart seems to me to be an incredibly self-involved view of the
world. Personally, as a very loving parent, I have not found that my
parental experience has set me apart from other childless women in
regards to my maturity or my ability to be selfless. In fact I find
that I tend to be a bit less mature at times (probably do to exhaustion)
and I become more preoccupied with my own little world - worried about
my son, his life experiences, his future, etc. Did you ever think that,
given our earth's limited capacity to sustain life, maybe women who opt
not to further populate this planet are doing the more mature and
selfless thing? Are you confusing selfless with self-absorbed?
Lynn
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Sep 8 08:07:10 1997
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
by emout01.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0)
Mon, 8 Sep 1997 10:07:05 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 10:07:05 -0400 (EDT)
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Hello Will
P.S. A lot of us childless women know that the world has too many people on
it to begin with. Plus, there are a lot of unwanted children who need good
homes. (My plans are to adopt in the future) I work with disadvantaged
children -- many who have been abused, neglected, etc. by their parents. I
LOVE kids....
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Sep 8 08:23:37 1997
From: "Jackie Van Brocklin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:23:45 CST
Subject: Re: Hello Will
In-reply-to: <v03007803b0397184e163@[128.184.3.126]>
References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Thanks, Libby - I agree with you. To the person who stated that
"childless" women are somehow selfish, etc., and probably don't have
to tirelessly take care of someone --- you must not have met MY cat!
That is the most *NEEDY* animal in the world! :-)
She demands constant attention, and "talks" incessantly. Not wanting
her to be "disfunctional" I, of course, pay her the required
attention and talk to her - usually! Sometimes I tell her to leave
me alone - I'm way too tired to talk!!!
(Seems I've heard parents say the same thing..........)
Jackie
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Sep 8 08:51:31 1997
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 10:54:40 +0000
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Liam Campion)
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: anarchy and the environment
References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
helen lobato wrote:
>
> Fundamental to the cause of anarchy and the building of an anarchist society
> is the eradication of hierarchy. The fact that we progressed to a
> hierarchical culture ...
helen,
i have been enjoying your writing.
here i am not sure about progression. hierarchy appears to have been a
seductive innovation perhaps in regard to the waging of war. i suspect
that the multiple conversations of peace are the essential step. and the
dampening or silencing of these, the problem. e.g. including
advocacy of other species and systems along with careful "listening"
attention. perhaps we can learn from the human damage that has
accompanied a post colonial era. the concept of hierarchy is so deeply
ingrained now that the removal (in hopes of eradication) of one may lead
to deprivation and conflict among lesser power brokers or organized
crime.
> It is
> apparent that if we had been an anarchic society and therefore
> non-hierarchical we would have saved the environment.
my understanding is that nonhierarchical human societies had limits of
scale that related to the impact of large gatherings on an
environment... the depletion of resources and the possibility of
conflict.
i think we have reached the limits of a certain kind of human
development and it is time for bifurcation, and increased complexity,
respect, and internal modelling of our potential role in systems. we
have innate capacities as a species to allow us to do this... like .
our capacity to learn, to appreciate beauty and to recognize.
ecological diversity appears in this respect to be intelligent species
response to systems from the inside.
i agree with so much that you have written that i am given pause...
"eradication" seems like more of the same. (but an understanding that
could make hierarchy seem redundant, unneccessary, or awkward and
obsolete... ) what can we learn from other species in community? and
can we form community with them?
> helen
mary beth
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Sep 8 09:06:52 1997
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 08:06:48 -0700 (PDT)
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Carolyn Gage <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Hello Will
At 09:14 AM 9/8/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Peter Wright and Christine Laurence wrote:
>>
>> At 09:55 AM 28/08/97 +1000, you wrote:
>> >Will Bason wrote:
>>
>> >> Lots of women who have never had children are wonderful, deep and mature
>> beings.
>> >
>> Lee (?) wrote:
>>
>> >To be sure, but all the childless women I can think of that I know lack
>> >the maturity and selflessness of a mother. Some have cats as
>> >substitutes, but "mothering" a pet does not have the same effect. If a
>> >mother is selfish, her child will not let her rest, she has no choice
>> >but to fulfill their needs and to watch them tirelessly lest they injure
>> >themselves or be abducted or abused by some (usually male) fiend. And if
>> >her child is unhappy, she (typically) cannot let herself rest.
>>
Could be, Lee, that you are so parasitic on women's energy that you only
attract a certain kind of women into your experience. Very few males in my
life are allowed to see who I really am, and no doubt you would read me as
one of those heartless unmotherly creatures. Could be you are confusing our
disgust with men who hold attitudes like yours with the values we express
toward people who respect women.
Carolyn Gage
