Jonathan: I must confess that I didn't notice the original post, and wrongly jumped to the conclusion that you were doing ecosystem restoration. I agree with Marsh about the native soil; however, for a fairly sterile growing medium my favorite remains /R/ Vermiculite, although it can have asbestos in it so beware. I try to get seedlings into the site as soon as possible, from the smallest containers possible. Vermiculite can be compressed on planting, a great advantage. I have used a very few prills of /R/ Osmocote in/near the bottom of the container or planting slit. I neglected to mention in my earlier post that "fertilizer" can be toxic to mycorrhizal fungi, according to a moldy associate--another reason for avoiding it. I avoid anything with /R/ Perlite-type material in it.
I don't understand how you can avoid contaminating variables when you're growing trees out of their ecological contexts in quest of data on defenses--but I presume you've thought of this and taken care of it somehow(?). Will not the ecotypes from different latitudes be stressed at a common latitude? I can't cite the research off the top of my head, but 'way back in the Stone Age of forestry (late 1950's), the USFS was growing trees from seed taken from common altitudes, not to mention latitudes, and was even fussy about slope aspect. Maybe they have since been proven wrong? WT WT At 09:40 AM 11/8/2006, Mike wrote: >Shades of: >*Regional Differentiation in Plant Species* >Jens Clausen, David D. Keck, William M. Hiesey >/American Naturalist/, Vol. 75, No. 758 (May - Jun., 1941), pp. 231-250, >and: ibid., 1948, /Carnegie Institute of Washington Publ. No/. 581:1-129. >This classical investigation of the effects of altitude and accompanying >environmental conditions on the growth and reproduction of Achillea >millefolium (yarrow) on a landscape "transect" from east of Tioga Pass >in the Sierra Nevada and across the Central Valley to the Coast Ranges >of California came to mind. The authors established research gardens at >each location and grew plants from all of their locations in the native >soil existing there. I agree with the comments of David Thompson >regarding water and fertilization, and would add that growing your >plants in the soils and climates that they are adapted to would give you >your best results. Just saying "no' to fertilization and to irrigation >(after supporting root establishment with watering through the first dry >summer) would not be appropriate for your experiment, as I understand >it. You speak of studying plant defenses, but your result would be a >comparison of defenses mounted by different races of maple grown in >Promix and fertilizer, a few grown in the climatic conditions to which >they are adapted, while those that come from other latitudes (and the >corresponding regimes of rain and snow-fall, slope exposure and >temperature) are not. > >Edward Kormondy, in his 1976 book "Concepts of Ecology ", /Concepts of >Modern Biology Series, >Chapter 5, /has a good discussion of these environmental factors as they >relate to populations or races of plants. > >I have to conclude by an outcry against authors of elementary biology >and ecology texts who discuss the observations and experiments of others >in detail, and even reprint their text figures, without attribution or >reference. It may leave students with the impression that these studies >come from Heaven or from outer space, not to be read and criticized, and >it sure makes it hard for someone else to reference that work. > >Michael Marsh >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >------------ >// > >> Re: How much fertilizer to give seedlings of wild trees? - and how > >> much irrigation? > >> From: > >> Dave Thomson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> Date: > >> Tue, 7 Nov 2006 12:00:28 -0800 > >> > >> > >> Jonathan, > >> > >> I realize this is an old post, and perhaps I should have replied to you > >> but I did not have actual specifications to offer. I only have > >> qualitative remarks based upon some reading, which unfortunately I > >> cannot cite. This question has become important to my work so I am > >> trying to resurrect it. I am including the Ecolog-L list because I > >> thought others could contribute to this discussion. I did not notice > >> any replies to you on the list, but if you did, or have any to share > >> that were sent directly to you, I would appreciate them. > >> > >> My qualitative remarks are thus: I read some time ago that native > >> riparian plantings do not respond well to "excessive watering". The > >> article did not refer to the effects of over-watering, or the > >> physiological consequences of oxygen starvation in the roots (i.e. > >> flooding stress), but rather to long-term effects such as inappropriate > >> growth form and wood strength. I am really sorry that I do not have > >> this citation any longer, because they must have data to support those > >> statements. And my recollection might be poor at this point. > >> > >> Nevertheless as I recall, the plantings that were "excessively" watered, > >> which I am guessing meant more than what would be available locally on > >> average, grew quite fast. Although fast growth might be looked upon > >> favorably in the short term, it does not necessarily produce healthy > >> plantings that are prepared to continue to mature. Indeed, a colleague > >> of mine has seen oaks at some sites simply fall over, break, and die > >> because they were tall and spindly, which he attributed to fast growth. > >> > >> > >> In essence, I believe what faster growth means is less wood density per > >> unit length. I would appreciate some assistance from the tree > >> biologists at this point, but I think the hardwoods are harder than the > >> softwoods because they grow relatively slower. I suppose there is some > >> overlap in that relationship, and with all things being equal some > >> species are able to grow faster than others irrespective of wood > >> strength, but if I am correct the generality should hold true. > >> Therefore, if you help a tree grow faster than it is adapted to, you run > >> the risk of reducing the wood's strength and increasing the tree's > >> vulnerability. > >> > >> So providing as much water as a plant can drink without causing flooding > >> stress is not always a good thing. Plants are adapted to the conditions > >> experienced by their ancestors, and their health and long-term vitality > >> is an expression of that very complex relationship. If we change part > >> of that relationship, even if we think we are improving one component, > >> we can unbalance it. I would assume that significantly changing soil > >> fertility, outside of the range normally encountered by the tree species > >> could have significant effects. And even if I come across too > >> cynically, I can safely say those effects are not necessarily going to > >> be good. > >> > >> I can offer a somewhat related story on "fertility". I met a poultry > >> feed scientist outside of a grocery store awhile back; he was sitting > >> with his two Great Danes. I am a fan of the breed, and noticed they > >> were relatively small, so I asked him if they were young. He said no, > >> that they were full grown, but smaller than average because he fed them > >> a low protein diet (lamb and rice dog food as I recall). He did so > >> because his research found that poultry fed low protein diets had fewer > >> health problems than those fed high protein diets. There is the reason > >> why I included this story, but let me finish for other reasons: he tried > >> it with his Great Danes, and found that they did indeed have few health > >> problems and they did not grow as large as their over-breeding usually > >> dictates. So they had fewer bone/joint problems. Sounds like a tree > >> response to excessive watering, so maybe this is a good analogy. > >> > >> So what do we do from here? Maybe we should be asking: How much > >> fertilizer and irrigation - IF ANY? (I have worked with soil scientists > >> to create amendment specifications to reduce soil fertility in the hope > >> of controlling invasive species recruitment, and compensated by > >> specifying methods to help establish a mycorrhizal community.) > >> Certainly we would need to contend with higher mortality rates and > >> replanting, but the individuals (genotypes?) that survived should be > >> better adapted to the site and be as healthy as possible. > >> > >> On a conceptual level, perhaps we need to dispel the myth that > >> agricultural conditions are the best conditions. Or at least avoid the > >> mental trap of thinking "higher" equals "better". I think it is safe to > >> say that some species do not acclimate well to agricultural conditions. > >> I hope that is enough to start a discussion, > >> > >> > >> David Thomson M.S. > >> Restoration Ecologist/Wetlands Scientist > >> Schaaf & Wheeler > >> 100 N. Winchester Blvd., Suite 200 > >> Santa Clara, CA 95050-6566 > >> (408) 246-4848 x119 > >> (408) 246-5624 (fax) > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news > >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Adams > >> Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 12:18 PM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: How much fertilizer to give seedlings of wild trees? > >> > >> My colleagues and I are are setting up a common garden experiment on = > >> populations of various oaks (Q. rubra, Q. phellos, Q. alba, Q. = > >> prinus/montana), red maple and tulip poplar from various latitudes to = > >> look at variation in plant defenses (by the way if anyone wants to come > >> = > >> and measure some aspect of inter-population variability along = > >> latitudinal gradients, we would welcome the extra collaboration).=20 > >> > >> The seedlings are doing great at the moment in just Promix which has no > >> = > >> nutrients, but soon they will start to run out of their seed reserves. I > >> = > >> have spoken to various people interested in horticulture but no-one = > >> seems quite sure how much to give to a wild tree seedling to ensure it = > >> both grows well now and stays tough enough to survive the rigors of = > >> being planted outdoors.=20 > >> > >> Can anyone suggest how much and how often we should feed our baby trees, > >> = > >> and with what brand of fertilizer? > >> > >> Thank you!! > >> > >> Jonathan Adams > >> > >> P.S. If you live in the Southland and curently have red maples seeding = > >> near you, we'd really welcome a bag of seeds! We have relatively few = > >> southerly populations of red maple. > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>
