I appreciate your reply, and will use it!

What bothers me most about the criticisms of Clements is the simple
fact that Clements is criticized for taking positions he never takes in
his major publications. For example, the superorganism idea. That comes
from the notion that communities (formations) have an ontogeny and a
phylogeny, and he is trying to plug into recapitulationism. He claims
communities have an ontogeny (succession) and a phylogeny (they are
descended from ancestral comminutes). And that's it. That's the
Clementsian superorganism. Other people took the concept other places
maybe, but the idea Clements proposed went no further than that.

Clements is also criticized for being Lamarckian. I'd like to see some
references to Clements on that issue. In Plant Succession, Clements
states that current communities evolved from past comminutes, but he
does not take a stand on the mechanism. Most people in that day accepted
the inheritance of acquired characters, and Darwin made it a foundation
of his theories; but we understand Darwin. We trash Clements for being
"Lamarckian" even though he does not base his succession ideas on
Lamarkianism.

Clements is sometimes trashed for not being Darwinian even though he
accepts Darwinian evolution as matter of fact in Plant Succession, but
does not take a stand on mechanism. Probably good politics, because you
had Mendelists vs Darwinists and strict selectionists vs
Lamarkians...and Clements really didn't need to propose how the climate
formed the vegetation, only state that it did, which it does, as we know
today, by natural selection! Just because Clements does not propose
specifically a selectionist model to explain how communities evolve
doesn't make him anti evolutionary or anti Darwinian in his thinking.

As far as Gleason is concerned, he is simply unfair. Clements speaks of
the forms of the vegetation, not the species composition. He
acknowledges that some communities in a given climax are very diverse
while others are not. Clements does not predict a specific species
composition for a climax, he predicts a specific form for the formation
(community). Clements describes the differences in species composition
between the marshy areas of Minnesota and the marshy areas of Louisiana,
for example. Clements also states quite clearly that the species that
will make up a formation (community) will be locally dispersed, and that
long distance dispersal probably makes a negligible contribution to any
community. 

Finally, Clements also makes a point of discussing small scale
disturbances and habitat heterogeneity. He speaks of the importance of
disturbances as small as wheel ruts, and variation like altitude and
aspect on a mountain slope, and goes on at length on how habitat
heterogeneity and small scale disturbances will affect community
composition. He even talks at length about gradation of one community
into another on even very small scales.

Gleason states "It has often occurred to the writer that much of the
structural variation in an association will disappear if taxonomic units
which have the same vegetational form and behavior could be considered
as a single ecological unit". Gleason has no arguement from this point
on. Clements is in fact considering taxonomic forms which have the same
form and behavior as single ecological units to the point of suggesting
that herbaria be organized to reflect the common form and behavior of
plants, which had to rankle systematists who want classification to
reflect phyogeny only. If Gleason were to propose that the destruction
of large sections of a temeprate broad leaved deciduous forest would be
followed by something other than a succession leading to a temerate
broad leaved deciduous forest climax, all else being equal, he would
have something. In the end though, he attacks Clements for saying
something Clements did not say; that the species composition of a climax
community is constant. Clements nevcer makes that claim.

I could go on for a while, as there is a lot more I can say here!

"So easy it seemed once found, which yet
unfound most would have thought impossible"

John Milton
________________________________________

Robert G. Hamilton
Department of Biological Sciences
Mississippi College
P.O. Box 4045
200 South Capitol Street
Clinton, MS 39058
Phone: (601) 925-3872 
FAX (601) 925-3978

>>> Skip Van Bloem <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 2/20/2007 12:15 AM >>>
I get Ecolog posts in digest form, so usually when I am tempted to 
comment it is already a day late, and so I don't.  But this time I'll 
make an exception in defense of Henry Gleason (and also in defense of 
Clements) though probably not in time to forestall Dr. Hamilton's 
"trashing" of Gleason to his class.

It is very much worthwhile to consider not only the state of ecology 
back in 1916 and in the 1930s, but also to consider the backgrounds of

both Clements and Gleason.  I  would argue that based on their 
experience both men would have no choice to come up with their 
respective interpretations of succession and that if you flipflopped 
their experience, both men would have developed the others' theories.

Clements primarily worked mostly in temperate and montane environments

in the USA (Neb, Min, Col, Calif, Ariz).  Gleason began his research in

Ill, following up on work by Cowles, and continued in Michigan and at 
the NY Botanical Garden.  Most importantly for this post, Gleason spent

time putting together a botanical survey for Puerto Rico and worked in

the Asian tropics.  He had already begun to question the association 
model of Clements by 1927, but his tropical trips resulted in a more 
complete criticism.  From PR, Gleason published on plant ecology and 
noted that multiple transects or plots would seldom result in similar 
species compositions. (Gleason, H.A. and M.T. Cook, Plant ecology of 
Porto Rico. Scientific Survey of Porto Rico and the Virgin Islands, 
1927. 7(1-2): p. 1-173.)  Granted, a series of plots or transects may 
only be descriptive, but PR at the time that Gleason was here was 
already a highly fragmented habitat, severely affected by land use 
history.  The Spanish had been here for >400 years.  Agriculture was 
already well on its way to deforesting 96% of the island (a level 
reached within 25 yr of Gleason's visit) but some marginal lands and 
former crown lands were already developing secondary forests.  We have

aerial photos of the island from 1936 that show clear patchworks of 
forest fragments of various ages witihin an agricultural matrix.  
Gleason was a bright fellow, was well trained by Cowles and in 
Clementsian succession before arriving in PR, and would have recognized

the value of sampling in what we would now recognize as a 
chronosequence.  I would argue that chronosequence sampling is in fact

experimental, but that is probably another topic for Ecolog.  Finally,
I 
think if you read more of Gleason's work, you'll find that he is cut 
more from a modeler's mold. 

If you blindfold yourself and run through a mature forest in Michigan,

it's pretty sure that you'll run into a majority of beeches and maples,

or oaks and hickories, etc.  If you do the same in mature forests in 
Puerto Rico, you won't run into a majority of anything, except trees, 
and our flora is "depauperate" compared to continental tropical tree 
floras.  In fact, we do refer to "tabonuco" or "colorado" forests, but

these aren't dominant species in the temperate sense, they are better 
understood as species that one might frequently find in mature lowland

or lower montane (respectively) wet forests.  They are indicators of a

forest type, rather than a successional association.  If you go into a

mature (>80 year old) forest in the tropics and predict the species of

tree next to the one you are standing under, you'll need a long list to

be correct--much longer than in most temperate/alpine regions.

On the other hand, Clements did not work in the tropics, as far as I 
know.  As such, he would have a shorter list of species to work with
and 
a set of "climax" forests that were very predictable in dominant 
species--even in species from earlier successional stages, as Marks so

well illustrated in Pennsylvania.  A most reasonable explanation of 
these patterns would be plant associations.  When forced to explain 
"exceptions" due to waterlogged soil, sandy patches, etc. Clements 
defined smaller associations.  Perhaps the tropical forests represent 
ever more smaller associations due to edaphic and other factors, but it

is very hard not to believe that our forests are more individualistic 
and our species are more interchangeable.  Gleason began his career in

Illinois using a Clementsian approach and found cracks in it, even from

his descriptive work.  Perhaps Clements' calls for more experimentation

were a smokescreen to diminish the attention paid to his critics.  
Perhaps it was genuine.  Regardless, in hindsight, it was ahead of the

curve to call for manipulative support for successional concepts.  On 
the other hand, 10 years after the publication of Clements' seminar 
work, Gleason would have had ample experience with very controlled 
observations in much different systems to both support his 
individualistic hypothesis and criticize superorganisms.

So there is my 2c. and as it's after midnight, this post will probably

miss yet another day in the life of ecolog digests, but thanks for 
letting me provide a postscript.

Skip J. Van Bloem, PhD
Dept. of Agronomy and Soils
University of Puerto Rico at Mayaguez



> Date:    Sat, 17 Feb 2007 13:51:50 -0600
> From:    Robert Hamilton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: 1916 Clements reference in electronic version?
>
> The problem I see with Gleason is that his argument is purely
> rhetorical. He does use examples, but no experimental analyses of
any
> sort. A key point, again JMHO, is that Gleason talks of SPECIES
while
> Clements talks more of life forms. Clements does not predict rigid
> SPECIES compositions, however one of the problems with a lot of
Clements
> work is the attempt to define smaller and smaller scale associations
of
> life forms.
>
> I could rant on almost indefinitely! Reading Gleason reveals a
person
> who is consumed with description only; there is no attempt at any
sort
> of experimental analysis. Clements continually insists on
experimental
> analysis. The 1916 paper, for example, includes a lot of data. One
needs
> to remember where Ecology was in 1916. We had no Evolutionary
Synthesis,
> but rather Darwinists vs Mendelists. We had no concept of any sort
of
> Functional Ecology outside Clements and his group. Clements
challenged
> people who just wanted to describe; Clements wanted experimental
> analysis.

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