Hi Matheus, I respect your 'social' view of shrimp farms. But this is not unanimity within Brazilian researchers. Even so that the shrimp farms is considered a pervasive culture for many ngo's and environmental groups established in northeastern Brazil where you live. The major concern is about the shrimp farm that is planned for the south Bahia region. Close to the biggest and most diverse coral reef complex of the Brazilian coast. Anyone that knew a little bit of marine ecology is aware of the existent links between the coral reefs and mangroves. Mangroves act as critical nursery grounds for important reef fishes that sustain the fisheries that feed the same people you want to 'help' with the shrimp farms. For me, the social benefit of shrimp farms at the cost of mangrove destruction and consequently risk of fisheries collapse is the same as solving a problem creating another one.
Best wishes Osmar Santos, Brazil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matheus Carvalho" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 11:07 PM Subject: Re: population control - about the shrimp farms > To increase complexity even more, I think it is worthy > to say that shrimp farms not always displace > populations, and I risk to say that in some places, at > least from my personal experience, they do the > opposite, they bring people. Most of us are aware of > negative impacts of shrimp farms in some places in the > world, like in Ecuador or Southwest Asia. I would like > to say that in Brazil Northeast things are not quite > the same, that no big environmental problem has > occurred up till now and that if the industry is not > growing at the moment, this is due mainly to > macroeconomical reasons (cheap dollar). Some > professionals are behind the opperation of these > farms. They want a nice environment as much as any of > us here. And I bet that the local population where > these farms started to opperate are now much better > than before. > Why I say so? How many of us here really know > Brazilian Northeast? Well, I lived there most of my > life and then I will say here what I saw and lived, > and not what I read or heard. In Brazilian Northeast, > people are poor, especially people far from big > cities. On the coast line, they have one choice: to > fish. In the country side, they may try to do > agriculture. But rain does not come every year, so > they have two choices: stay and die or migrate to a > better place. This has been the reallity for centuries > there. And now the shrimp farms came. You know the > nice thing of shrimp farms? It is that they use > seawater, or brackish water. Then, different from > normal agriculture, they can be done even in harsh > places like Brazililan Northeast (ok, Brazilian > Northeast is vast and of course there are "oasis" > there; but the general situation is like I said). > Then, shrimp farms gives another choice for people > there. Some of us may find it romantic to live from > the mangrove and catch some crabs to survive. Well, I > don't. It is not nice. Nobody who has ever done it > think it is nice. They much more prefer to ride some > kayaks and feed the shrimps three times a day (I did > and enjoyed, much better than body building for the > backs). More than the exercise, they get some money > and can give much better lifes for their families. > In order not to write a treatise, I finish here. In > short, I only want to present a perhaps different view > of Brazilian shrimp farms. > > Regards to all, > > Matheus > > --- William Allison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > escreveu: > >> To pursue Osmars's logic a little farther and add >> more complexity, >> third world poor are often displaced to marginal, >> high risk areas by >> government or by them as have the clout and means to >> persuade >> government to allow it (to put in a resort, replace >> mangroves with >> shrimp farm, etc, etc) so the footprint of both rich >> and poor >> increases. >> Bill >> >> >> On 12/1/07, Osmar Luiz Jr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> wrote: >> > I just wondered what kind of people developed this >> ecological footprint >> > quiz, because for me its seen biased and flawed. >> Naïve, at best. >> > You said that first world kids will have larger >> footprints that third world >> > kids. Because poor third world kids don't travel >> by planes, they walk by >> > feet because his parents don't have a car, share >> it houses with many of >> > people and doesn't eat meat or industrialized food >> because don't have money >> > for buy it. >> > But I've not seen in that quiz questions about if >> the shanty town you live >> > was built over a former pristine rainforest bush, >> how many trees must be >> > down to build your wooden house and what the >> oxygen dissolved rate in the >> > water of that river which you and your family >> deject your feces. This >> > certalinly will improve the footprint of the poor >> third world kids. >> > You should make all the questions. That >> `footprint quiz` could made first >> > world people feels guilt. But again your >> eco-attitudes will be useless and >> > short-reached if population in the tropics still >> rises at the rates they >> > are. >> > Osmar >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > ----- Original Message ----- >> > > From: "Cara Lin Bridgman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > > To: <[email protected]> >> > > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 2:29 PM >> > > Subject: Re: population control >> > > >> > > >> > >> Idiocracy, then, gets back to the 1920's and >> 1930's ideas of eugenics >> > >> and 'propagation of the fit' (lampooned by >> Dorothy Sayers in her book >> > >> Gaudy Night): educated people must reproduce to >> make sure we still have >> > >> smart people on the planet--as if all the poor >> people were stupid. >> > >> >> > >> So far, I've really only see one or two >> comments on the relative weights >> > >> of ecological footprints between those in first >> world countries deciding >> > >> not to have kids and those in third world >> countries having lots of kids. >> > >> Most any bunch of third world kids will have >> a whole lot smaller >> > >> ecological footprint than most any first world >> kid or non-child-bearing >> > >> first-world adult. A year or so ago, here on >> Ecolog, this point was >> > >> raised. First world ecological footprints are >> huge compared to third >> > >> world ones--even with 'only one' long-haul >> flight a year (that one >> > >> flight adds a whole planet to an ecological >> footprint: >> > >> www.myfootprint.org). >> > >> >> > >> So, the third world may be making most of the >> babies, but it is the >> > >> first (and second) world that is doing most of >> the consumption and is >> > >> the driving force behind most ecological >> disasters from mountain top >> > >> removal for coal to logging for living room >> furniture to wars for oil. >> > >> >> > >> The arguments about having kids to maintain >> social security are not any >> > >> different from the arguments about having kids >> to take care of you in >> > >> your old age. In the third world, kids ARE >> social security. The point >> > >> I've always wondered about is this: what sort >> of social security will >> > >> these kids have? >> > >> >> > >> CL >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> Please note my new-old email address: >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > >> >> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> > >> Cara Lin Bridgman >> > >> >> > >> P.O. Box 013 Phone: 886-4-2632-5484 >> > >> Longjing Sinjhuang >> > >> Taichung County 434 >> > >> Taiwan >> http://megaview.com.tw/~caralin/ >> > >> >> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> > >> >> > >> Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail >> Protegido Terra. >> > >> Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em >> 30/11/2007 / Versão: >> > >> 5.1.00/5175 >> > >> Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: >> http://mail.terra.com.br/ >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> -- >> > >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> > >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> > >> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: >> 269.16.12/1162 - Release Date: >> > >> 30/11/2007 21:26 >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> > >> > > > Matheus C. Carvalho > PhD student > Kitasato University - School of Fishery Sciences > Japan > > > Abra sua conta no Yahoo! Mail, o único sem limite de espaço para > armazenamento! > http://br.mail.yahoo.com/ > > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 30/11/2007 / Versão: > 5.1.00/5175 > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/ > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.12/1162 - Release Date: > 30/11/2007 21:26 >
