Hello, Osmar. Of course when I talk about shrimp farms I am talking about those that do not destroy the mangrove. They exist, and I risk to say that they are the most part of all in Brazilian Northeast. In every business there are those out of the law, in the shrimp is not different. I am talking about the good professionals, and they do exist. I know almost nothing about the farm they want to build in the South of Bahia, but from my experience (not so big, I admit), I cannot imagine such a farm affecting let alone destroying the coral reefs, since it is possible to build it barely affecting the nearby mangrove. In fact, a few years ago some people wanted to stop a shrimp farm beacuse some mangrove trees were growing nearby the ponds. If the trees were dying they would want to close the farm same way. What makes this people happy? I imagine that for the case in Bahia's South, the government, media and ngo pressure will be so huge that if the farm starts to operate it will be a miracle in itself. That happening, no mistake will be allowed, and the mere hipothesis that the guys there went a milimeter out of the right path will generate a rain of attacks that will certainly close the farm once and for all. This is only my imagination, though. What I think is that people is a little too scared. I understand the awareness on the coral reefs, since the bad background of shrimp farms in other parts of the world. But let's take a look at Brazilian Northeast. Never a big problem was confirmed for the farms there. Some accusations did come: 1) death of crabs some 5 years ago: proved to be wrong, it was a disease with nothing to do with the shrimps; 2) months ago, a massive fish death in a river; the very staff analysing the water admit the sampling was wrong, two different research groups disagree on the guiltiness of the farm, but, without fail, the news will say that the farm is guilty. I respect the environmentalists. I consider myself one (with the biggest modesty). But sometimes the level of the discussion is not that expected. Once a priest was saying that the shrimp farms were a danger for the population in Brazilian Northeast because the farms consume too much water and this would affect the population in the countryside, which already suffer without water. The priest forgot (or pretended to forget) that the water used in the farms is mainly (by mainly I mean about 99%) brackish or seawater, which means, useless for drinking or agriculture. In fact, if it were useful, water would never be a problem for humankind, due to the volume of the oceans, and his claim would nevertheless be flawed. I want to make clear: I don't work with shrimp, and I am getting no money for talking good things about the farmers. However, I care about Brazilian NE, and I see in the shrimp farms a possible alternative for that poor part of the country (and of the world). Maybe some people will have the opinion that it is better that they keep poor. This I call selfishness. Because I am sure that nobody there wants to be poor. You mention about the utility of the mangrove for the people there, that the shrimp farms merely substitute one thing for another. It depends on the view point. I don't have the numbers, but maybe some speculations will eventually suggest that 1m2 of mangrove would in fact feed more people than 1m2 of shrimp farm. I will not argue about that, although I doubt. But food is not the question. The question is not to survive. In general, people there can eat well. But that's it. And this is not very interesting, and it is not for another reason that the vast majority of fishermen's sons don't want to be fishermen: they want to see the world, they want to be astronauts, they want to be doctors, and so on. They dream. Without progress, they can barely do it.
Regards, Matheus --- Osmar Luiz Jr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escreveu: > Hi Matheus, > I respect your 'social' view of shrimp farms. But > this is not unanimity > within Brazilian researchers. Even so that the > shrimp farms is considered a > pervasive culture for many ngo's and environmental > groups established in > northeastern Brazil where you live. > The major concern is about the shrimp farm that is > planned for the south > Bahia region. Close to the biggest and most diverse > coral reef complex of > the Brazilian coast. > Anyone that knew a little bit of marine ecology is > aware of the existent > links between the coral reefs and mangroves. > Mangroves act as critical > nursery grounds for important reef fishes that > sustain the fisheries that > feed the same people you want to 'help' with the > shrimp farms. > For me, the social benefit of shrimp farms at the > cost of mangrove > destruction and consequently risk of fisheries > collapse is the same as > solving a problem creating another one. > > Best wishes > Osmar > Santos, Brazil > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Matheus Carvalho" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 11:07 PM > Subject: Re: population control - about the shrimp > farms > > > > To increase complexity even more, I think it is > worthy > > to say that shrimp farms not always displace > > populations, and I risk to say that in some > places, at > > least from my personal experience, they do the > > opposite, they bring people. Most of us are aware > of > > negative impacts of shrimp farms in some places in > the > > world, like in Ecuador or Southwest Asia. I would > like > > to say that in Brazil Northeast things are not > quite > > the same, that no big environmental problem has > > occurred up till now and that if the industry is > not > > growing at the moment, this is due mainly to > > macroeconomical reasons (cheap dollar). Some > > professionals are behind the opperation of these > > farms. They want a nice environment as much as any > of > > us here. And I bet that the local population where > > these farms started to opperate are now much > better > > than before. > > Why I say so? How many of us here really know > > Brazilian Northeast? Well, I lived there most of > my > > life and then I will say here what I saw and > lived, > > and not what I read or heard. In Brazilian > Northeast, > > people are poor, especially people far from big > > cities. On the coast line, they have one choice: > to > > fish. In the country side, they may try to do > > agriculture. But rain does not come every year, so > > they have two choices: stay and die or migrate to > a > > better place. This has been the reallity for > centuries > > there. And now the shrimp farms came. You know the > > nice thing of shrimp farms? It is that they use > > seawater, or brackish water. Then, different from > > normal agriculture, they can be done even in harsh > > places like Brazililan Northeast (ok, Brazilian > > Northeast is vast and of course there are "oasis" > > there; but the general situation is like I said). > > Then, shrimp farms gives another choice for people > > there. Some of us may find it romantic to live > from > > the mangrove and catch some crabs to survive. > Well, I > > don't. It is not nice. Nobody who has ever done it > > think it is nice. They much more prefer to ride > some > > kayaks and feed the shrimps three times a day (I > did > > and enjoyed, much better than body building for > the > > backs). More than the exercise, they get some > money > > and can give much better lifes for their families. > > In order not to write a treatise, I finish here. > In > > short, I only want to present a perhaps different > view > > of Brazilian shrimp farms. > > > > Regards to all, > > > > Matheus > > > > --- William Allison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > escreveu: > > > >> To pursue Osmars's logic a little farther and add > >> more complexity, > >> third world poor are often displaced to marginal, > >> high risk areas by > >> government or by them as have the clout and means > to > >> persuade > >> government to allow it (to put in a resort, > replace > >> mangroves with > >> shrimp farm, etc, etc) so the footprint of both > rich > >> and poor > >> increases. > >> Bill > >> > >> > >> On 12/1/07, Osmar Luiz Jr > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> wrote: > >> > I just wondered what kind of people developed > this > >> ecological footprint > >> > quiz, because for me its seen biased and > flawed. > >> Naïve, at best. > >> > You said that first world kids will have larger > >> footprints that third world > >> > kids. Because poor third world kids don't > travel > >> by planes, they walk by > >> > feet because his parents don't have a car, > share > >> it houses with many of > >> > people and doesn't eat meat or industrialized > food > >> because don't have money > >> > for buy it. > >> > But I've not seen in that quiz questions about > if > >> the shanty town you live > >> > was built over a former pristine rainforest > bush, > >> how many trees must be > >> > down to build your wooden house and what the > >> oxygen dissolved rate in the > >> > water of that river which you and your family > >> deject your feces. This > >> > certalinly will improve the footprint of the > poor > >> third world kids. > >> > You should make all the questions. That > >> `footprint quiz` could made first > >> > world people feels guilt. But again your > >> eco-attitudes will be useless and > >> > short-reached if population in the tropics > still > >> rises at the rates they > >> > are. > >> > Osmar > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > > From: "Cara Lin Bridgman" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> > > To: <[email protected]> > >> > > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 2:29 PM > >> > > Subject: Re: population control > >> > > > >> > > > >> > >> Idiocracy, then, gets back to the 1920's and > >> 1930's ideas of eugenics > >> > >> and 'propagation of the fit' (lampooned by > >> Dorothy Sayers in her book > >> > >> Gaudy Night): educated people must reproduce > to > >> make sure we still have > >> > >> smart people on the planet--as if all the > poor > >> people were stupid. > >> > >> > >> > >> So far, I've really only see one or two > >> comments on the relative weights > === message truncated === Matheus C. Carvalho PhD student Kitasato University - School of Fishery Sciences Japan Abra sua conta no Yahoo! Mail, o único sem limite de espaço para armazenamento! http://br.mail.yahoo.com/
