Now, perhaps, we need to consider the student's perspective. Since our culture values quantity over quality, is the student's attitude of " just tell me what I need to know" really that odd or unreasonable? Given that they are being shoveled massive amounts of information in several courses, not just one course, and need to finish in four years. Following this thread gives the impression that students are only taking a single ecology course.
randy ========================================= RK Bangert ========================================= On Jan 20, 2010, at 5:15 AM, Meenan, James wrote: > I apologize for the zinger. I completely understand the rubric used to grade > undergrads and appreciate the time and effort that it takes to do so. My > point (that I so tackily stated) was that students understand this rubric and > that is why they ask " just tell me what I need to know." I believe that > most students start at this point and then integrate this information into > the larger context of the subject matter. Again, I apologize, but can we > please be a less harsh with our generalizations about our students. The > majority of them are trying to absorb what we are teaching them and not > shoveling in, then purging information. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news > [mailto:ecolo...@listserv.umd.edu] On Behalf Of Val Smith > Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 6:14 PM > To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU > Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] now I've seen it all: Decline in education > > Just for information's sake, more than a decade ago I helped to create > the University of Kansas' Center for Teaching Excellence > (http://www.cte.ku.edu), and like other teaching faculty at KU, I follow > its well-thought-out, professional recommendations with regards to > assuring the consistency and fairness of exam grading. The grading of > 400 exams containing up to 3-4 short answers and 1-2 essays can take the > better part of 12-15 hours or more even when we obtain the assistance of > as many as ten highly knowledgeable grading assistants who are already > serving as GTAs in the laboratory portion of the course. > > A grading rubric that defines the "best" or "preferred" answers to the > questions in any exam is created and provided to all graders (which > include the teachers of record): there can after all be only a small > subset of completely correct answers to any given question, such as the > correct direction of heat energy or material flows in counter-current > exchange systems, or the correct direction of water flow in a plant's > xylem, or the correct absolute value of Avogadro's number, or the > correct equation for exponential population growth, or the correct > balanced equation for photosynthesis, or the correct name for the enzyme > that catalyzes the breakdown of lactose, or the correct definition for > gastrovascular cavity, or the major taxonomic characteristics that are > considered to be unique to a specific Order of plants (I'm sure that you > surely must see my point here). > > Typically one or two graders (including both of the faculty members who > are the teachers of record) are then assigned a certain question, and > exam grading proceeds. If there is any concern about a particular > student's answer for any particular question, then the entire group > stops and deliberates/discusses whether the particular answer under > consideration was either correct (100% credit), partially correct (for > partial credit), or incorrect (0% credit). The grading rubric is > provided electronically to all students taking the course after the > exam, and each student then has further recourse by making a formal > appointment with the instructors of record to discuss any and all > questions for which they might dispute the grading. > > Just curious: did you intend for your tone in this message to be as > hostile to academia, and as intentionally and deliberately derogatory as > I perceived it? If so, very tacky, and one might wonder whether you > have ever bothered to read the literature on exam grading and learning > assessment methods, or whether you have ever actually taught in the > classroom? Please explain clearly to me, and also to the readers of > ECOLOG, how the extremely lengthy, objective, completely transparent, > and highly deliberative grading process above might constitute > "professorial laziness". It is unfortunately very easy in an electronic > forum such as this to write a three-sentence zinger that is completely > without basis or merit. > > Val H. Smith > > > On 1/19/2010 2:29 PM, Meenan, James wrote: >> Let me see if I have this clear. You criticize students for asking you to >> "just tell me what I need to know" and then you grade their essay questions >> by using a rubric (tell me what I want to hear) that is "interpreted" by a >> GTA. Professorial laziness? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news >> [mailto:ecolo...@listserv.umd.edu] On Behalf Of Val Smith >> Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 9:28 AM >> To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU >> Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] now I've seen it all: Decline in education >> >> Dave, you are not being unreasonable at all. The responses that you >> mention stem from intellectual laziness and/or short-term-oriented >> learning strategies. I, too, have had my students say, "just tell me >> what I need to know", and it is very clear that they indeed wish to >> shovel in the information, play it back to me on an exam, and then purge >> it from their memory banks. The "ideal" of obtaining a broad education >> is largely irrelevant for a substantial portion of the student >> population, whose goal is simply to pass their exams and to get >> acceptable grades /*now*/. >> >> They also consistently ask me to prune or restrict the lecture content: >> if a fact, concept, or idea will not appear on the MCAT, for example, it >> is deemed irrelevant because it does not help with their short-term >> goals (these same students forget that my General Biology course is >> required of all Biological Science majors, and not just pre-Health >> Science majors). This problem is particularly apparent during the >> general botany and the general ecology portions of my 400-student >> General Biology class, but I help them to /*see*/ the relevance of this >> material by, for example, pointing out that the human gut is >> functionally an ecosystem whose microflora obeys the known principles of >> population and community ecology. One could equally well create >> teaching slides which refer to the literature that links ecological >> principles to outbreaks of Lyme disease, or other human pathogens. If >> you /*show*/ them how and why a key concept or fact is relevant, they >> are less likely to complain about it. >> >> I have stopped pandering to this attitude entirely: I have stuck with >> question-driven, active learning methods, and I simply accept the >> increased probability that I will likely receive lower evaluation >> scores. I also make it very clear within the formal wording of my >> syllabus that mine is a very demanding and highly interactive class, and >> that all exams will be based upon a mix of multiple choice + short >> answer + essay questions (even in the 400-student class; we hire GTAs to >> grade the short answer and essay sections of these exams after providing >> each of them with a formal grading rubric). If they choose not to >> enroll, and wish to wait for a semester when my course has a different >> professor, then that is their own personal choice. My teaching rigor >> has not stopped students from nominating me for the best teaching awards >> that KU offers (some of which I have indeed won), confirming that the >> student population still contains a significant number of students >> (including pre-Health Science) who really /*do*/ care about learning, >> and who respect my methods. Thankfully, I have and am completely >> supported by an Upper Administration at KU that strongly believes in >> teaching rigor, and thus I do not risk reprisals; I fear that this is >> not always the case in every U.S. university or college, however. >> >> Best wishes, >> Val Smith >> University of Kansas >> >> >> On 1/18/2010 2:18 PM, David M. Lawrence wrote: >> >>> I watched my evaluation scores decline when I switched to "active >>> learning." I got tired of lecturing from powerpoints that the >>> students could memorize, regurgitate on tests, and quickly forget. >>> >>> Somehow, it was unreasonable for me to expect the students to show up >>> for the lectures prepared and willing to participate in class >>> discussions. It was even more unreasonable for me to refuse to "just >>> tell us what we need to know," when they couldn't answer very simple >>> questions that I'd toss out to stimulate discussion. >>> >>> It was also unreasonable for me to expect them to ask questions >>> relevant to the material we discussed in class. I had students >>> complain they didn't learn anything from me, but it seems to me that >>> if they weren't asking questions -- either in class, on class >>> discussion boards, or via e-mail -- they couldn't have been trying >>> very hard. >>> >>> Maybe I am unreasonable... >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> On 1/18/2010 12:17 PM, James Crants wrote: >>> >>>> On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 2:04 PM, Val Smith<vsm...@ku.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> I lay much of this decline at the feet of their parents, who seem to >>>>> care >>>>> progressively less and less about knowledge. I recall a particularly >>>>> notable incident from over a decade ago, when my youngest daughter's >>>>> grade >>>>> school Principal retired. The new Principal unilaterally decided that >>>>> Science Fair projects for grades 2-6 should become completely >>>>> voluntary, >>>>> rather than remaining as a formal requirement that had long been >>>>> embedded in >>>>> this school's outstanding science preparation curriculum. On the >>>>> day of the >>>>> science project evaluations, I expressed dismay about this undesirable >>>>> change to another parent, who at that time was almost 20 years my >>>>> junior. >>>>> Her response was to shout across the room to her husband, "John >>>>> (not his >>>>> real name), this guy thinks everybody should have to do a science fair >>>>> project, and /that this is all about learning science/!" and she >>>>> then turned >>>>> to me to say, "If everyone has to do a project, that lowers the >>>>> chance that >>>>> our child will win the Best Science Project award. That's unfair >>>>> competition." And she walked away. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> As I was reading your post, I was hoping you would mention the role of >>>> parents in any decline in the quality of the American education. >>>> >>>> I think it started with the baby boom. After the Depression and >>>> World War >>>> II, parents wanted the best for their children, but by providing the >>>> best >>>> materially, many raised children with an inflated sense of >>>> entitlement and >>>> self-importance. When these children raised my generation, >>>> self-esteem was >>>> seen as the most important quality you could promote in a developing >>>> mind, >>>> so many of us grew up feeling even more entitled and important. >>>> Also, since >>>> self-important people like today's parents don't respect authority >>>> figures, >>>> parents now tend to side with their children over teachers when there >>>> is a >>>> student-teacher conflict. Worse, since the entire class is, on average, >>>> not as prepared as it should be to learn the material you're trying to >>>> teach, disgruntled students can look to low average performance for the >>>> whole class to assure themselves that it's your fault if they don't >>>> get high >>>> marks. With students and parents both blaming you for low grades, >>>> and a low >>>> class average apparently supporting their arguments, it's easiest to >>>> lower >>>> your expectations and standards. (And you'll probably get higher >>>> teaching >>>> evaluation scores if you do.) When you do, you end up passing on >>>> students >>>> who aren't prepared for the next level of education. >>>> >>>> I understand the importance of questioning authority, and Wendee >>>> Holtcamp's >>>> example of childbirth in American hospitals attests to that >>>> importance (though I believe the doctors rush the delivery because >>>> they're >>>> trained to believe it's best for the patient, not because they put their >>>> spare time ahead of patient care). However, there's an important >>>> distinction between questioning authority and assuming authority is >>>> wrong. >>>> >>>> With respect to the original conversation thread, while I certainly >>>> agree >>>> that it's a problem that people with the appearance of authority are >>>> making >>>> BS claims on television, I don't think that's the only major threat to >>>> scientific authority. Another threat is the widely-held perception that >>>> any scientist who thinks they know more than you do about their area of >>>> expertise is arrogant (and wrong). Because scientific knowledge is >>>> contingent on future results, scientists sometimes find themselves >>>> admitting >>>> that they were wrong about something. Unlike pundits or politicians, >>>> scientists can't blame some other party, and people will hold onto those >>>> errors as evidence that we're not as clever as we think we are, so >>>> they can >>>> ignore us if they don't like our message. Also, some people just >>>> don't like >>>> smart people much, so mistakes made by smart people are cherished as >>>> proof >>>> that they aren't so smart after all. >>>> >>>> Mind you, I have little evidence for most of the generalities I'm making >>>> here, but this is just my model of why students seem to be less prepared >>>> than they used to and why scientific authority doesn't get the respect I >>>> think it should. >>>> >>>> Jim Crants >>>> >>> >> >> ========================================= RK Bangert, Post-Doctoral Fellow Biological Sciences Idaho State University contact address: P.O. 335 Mancos, CO 81328 SKYPE Phone: 303-872-7734 bangr...@isu.edu http://www.isu.edu/~bangrand/RKB/Home.html =========================================
