That USDA range map for post oak touches on a point raised earlier. Those civic-minded oaks conform their range exactly to US state and national boundaries, and nowhere is it introduced.
And, Dave M., despite your "Good grief" to Matt C.. don't you think it's appropriate to pay some attention to the temporal nature of geographic boundaries? Does it sound right to say "Dinosaurs once roamed New York City"? It sounds sillier when applied to a city rather than a state, but the principle is the same. When speaking carefully we can insert the phrase "...what is now..." Martin M. Meiss 2012/3/13 David L. McNeely <mcnee...@cox.net> > to get back to the original question, here is the USDA take on the matter: > > > http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=QUST&mapType=nativity&photoID=qust_002_avp.tif > > mcneely > > ---- Wayne Tyson <landr...@cox.net> wrote: > > Are you sure you're not seeing recolonization? The Texas of my boyhood > was > > largely spent camping out in the post-oak timber belt, and I personally > > pulled stumps as my part of clearing them to plant alien pasture grasses, > > goobers, hairy vetch, and other "crops" recommended by the county agent. > > >From the mid-ninteenth century until the present era, such clearing has > been > > tantamount to "doing God's will." Maybe God has something to do with the > > recolonization of the post-oaks, the grass-burrs, the briar patches, the > > poison ivy and all the other plants and animals that once populated that > > region? > > > > WT > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Tacy Fletcher" <cay...@yahoo.com> > > To: <ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 8:20 AM > > Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] definition of "native" > > > > > > >From a land-manager's perspective regarding the post oaks of the Texas > > >region, most likely one would say that post-oaks havenaturalizedas many > > >introduced species do. Whether the species was introduced by animal or > > >weather phenomena is a debate not worth having. But for fun I thought I > > >would add the POV of a stewardship technician: that if it isn't running > > >amok, then I have more aggressive plant species to try to corral. > > > > Cordially yours, > > > > Tacy Fletcher (uses pseudonym "Cayt Fletch" on facebook) also > > tflet...@pnc.edu > > Fletch > > > > > > > > >________________________________ > > > From: Martin Meiss <mme...@gmail.com> > > >To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU > > >Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 8:39 AM > > >Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] definition of "native" > > > > > > Even if we agree as to what "native" means, phrases such as "native > to > > >Texas" are problematic, and not just because, as Matt Chew points out, > > >human political constructs vary with time. If a tree is native to one > > >little corner of Texas, then the statement "native to Texas" applies, > but > > >what does it mean? It might be politically significant, for instance for > > >state laws governing exploitation of the species, but biologically not > very > > >useful. It seems to me that for biological purposes, the concept of > > >"native" should be tied to some biologically oriented construct, such as > > >Holdridge's life zones. > > > > > > Of course, a person out for a walk my come upon a species and wonder > > >if it is found in the area because of human intervention. Phrasing the > > >question as "Is this species native to this area?" would probably be > > >understood, but perhaps it would be better to ask in terms of human > > >intervention, i.e., "Is this species introduced?" Sometimes it is easier > > >to account for what humans do than for what nature does. > > > > > >Martin M. Meiss > > > > > > > > >2012/3/13 Matt Chew <anek...@gmail.com> > > > > > >> The general definition of 'native' is 'not introduced'. It is a > > >> historical > > >> criterion, not an ecological one, and it rests entirely on absence of > > >> evidence for introduction. That definition has not changed at all > since > > >> it > > >> was first fully codified in England in 1847. > > >> > > >> David McNeely's claim that "Post oak has been in Texas probably for > much > > >> of > > >> its existence as a species" suggests that Texas has been Texas for a > very > > >> long time indeed. But Texas, as a place identified by various sets of > > >> boundaries, is itself "post European" by the standard David provided. > By > > >> 1847 Texas was already flying the fifth of its six European-derived > > >> flags, > > >> during the Mexican-American War. And of course, post oak certainly > isn't > > >> endemic to any version of Texas, no matter how expansively imagined; > most > > >> post oaks have not been in Texas in any way. > > >> > > >> The tree hasn't even been called 'post oak' for "much of its > existence as > > >> a > > >> species". Whether it was a species at all before being described and > > >> named > > >> _Quercus_stellata_ by Friederich Adam Julius von Wangenheim late in > the > > >> 18th century is arguable, but it is certain that _Quercus_stellata_ > > >> translates more literally to "star oak" than "post oak". Very Texan. > > >> > > >> While this is all good semantic fun, it also draws attention serious > > >> conceptual weaknesses in our vague ideas and ideals of place-based > > >> belonging. For more, see > > >> > > >> > http://asu.academia.edu/MattChew/Papers/450641/The_Rise_and_Fall_of_Biotic_Nativeness_A_Historical_Perspective > > >> a.k.a. chapter 4 of Richardson's "Fifty Years of Invasion Ecology: The > > >> Legacy of Charles Elton." > > >> > > >> Matthew K Chew > > >> Assistant Research Professor > > >> Arizona State University School of Life Sciences > > >> > > >> ASU Center for Biology & Society > > >> PO Box 873301 > > >> Tempe, AZ 85287-3301 USA > > >> Tel 480.965.8422 > > >> Fax 480.965.8330 > > >> mc...@asu.edu or anek...@gmail.com > > >> http://cbs.asu.edu/people/profiles/chew.php > > >> http://asu.academia.edu/MattChew > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus Database: 2113/4868 - Release Date: 03/13/12 > > -- > David McNeely >
