But many people like both and are good at both. I wouldn't want either a 100% research or a 100% teaching position. I can be flexible about the mix, maybe doing research in the summers, but not about having the opportunity to do both.
Jane On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 9:09 PM, Aaron T. Dossey <[email protected]> wrote: > I wonder if the mixing of teaching and research is causing a lot of these > problems? In academia the only position for conducting original research > long-term is professor (ostensibly?) but they are also responsible for > teaching too (ostensibly?)... I wonder if the enterprise has grown too > large and we need to start parsing out the teaching to those who want to do > it and are good at it and the research who want to do and are good at that - > with some kind of more structured overlap so students can still experience > "real world research". The overlap I think has become a huge gray area, and > sharks feed in gray areas and murky waters - as do opportunists, thus > causing a lot of the problems we have been discussing. > > > > > On 10/23/2012 12:01 AM, malcolm McCallum wrote: >> >> I personally do not consider it an opportunity as you put it. >> I consider it a necessity or requirement you just better do. >> >> I have sat on a ton of search committees, and I guarantee you that >> teaching experience will trump none in every case except maybe a >> research doctoral school. >> >> I'm not sure if that is fair or not, but it is what it is. >> >> You can't guarantee yourself an R1 position, but you can at least give >> yourself a chance at a teaching post if you can show effective >> teaching at any level. >> >> M >> >> On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 7:54 PM, Aaron T. Dossey <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>> >>> Although I agree that experience teaching can give one a competitive edge >>> in >>> the ever more tiny faculty job market, and provide other benefits as >>> helping >>> guide one's career priorities, stay fresh with the basics etc.... BUT: >>> >>> I fear that this emerging trend to "give more teaching 'opportunities' to >>> students and postdocs" is a thinly veiled method to, like has been done >>> with >>> research, grantwriting and many other things, farm out or pass along >>> undesirable workloads to students and postdocs (ie: distill the faculty >>> job >>> description down to pullet points, keep those with a career benefit and >>> have >>> students and postdocs do those which are left). In fact I generally >>> cringe >>> (literally, often physically) when I see the word "opportunity" in titles >>> of >>> emails in this list associated with graduate school "positions" (jobs? >>> really?) and postdoc positions. >>> >>> Funding agencies, accreditation entities, institutions, etc. must watch >>> this >>> VERY CAREFULLY lest it devolve into a pyramid scheme like research has >>> been >>> for some time. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 10/22/2012 7:29 PM, Christa Mulder wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> I would like to comment on the need for training in teaching mentioned >>>> in >>>> earlier posts in this thread, and the comment below that students often >>>> have >>>> little opportunity to gain such training or experience. Things are >>>> changing >>>> rapidly: many universities now offer programs that provide training >>>> specifically aimed at graduate students who expect to have teaching (or >>>> outreach) be a significant part of their career. This follows from an >>>> increasing awareness that providing rigorous training in one aspect >>>> (research) and none in another (teaching or generally communicating >>>> science) >>>> when both are likely to be crucial components of future careers makes as >>>> much sense as training pianists to play with their right hand and expect >>>> the >>>> left hand to follow along at the first concert (this analogy was first >>>> provided by Jo Handelsman in her 2003 article "Teaching scientists to >>>> teach", HHMI bulletin 12:31). For example, at my university we have just >>>> submitted the paperwork to have a 12-credit Certificate in Teaching and >>>> Outreach aimed at graduate students in the sciences. Students who >>>> complete >>>> this will have practical training in course development, active learning >>>> techniques, evaluative techniques etc., they will have completed an >>>> internship (with a mentor faculty member in a college classroom, in a >>>> K-12 >>>> classroom, or in an informal educational setting such as a museum or >>>> visitor's center), and they will have a teaching portfolio, including a >>>> teaching philosophy statement based on experience rather than just >>>> ideas, >>>> that should help them obtain employment. Of course this takes more time >>>> initially - but in the long run it probably saves time as the level of >>>> frustration in teaching is reduced. And of course it should increase the >>>> quality of teaching that undergraduates are exposed to in the next >>>> generation. >>>> >>>> With respect to training in budget management and similar skills: I >>>> would >>>> strongly encourage graduate students to get together and ask their >>>> faculty >>>> for skills-based courses. These could be short courses or weekend >>>> workshops. >>>> It too will save you time in the long run. >>>> >>>> Good luck to everyone entering the job market. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> Christa Mulder >>>> >>>> >>>> On 10/22/2012 1:03 PM, Tyler Hicks wrote: >>>> I've been following this thread with great interest. I've found many of >>>> the comments to be on par with my own graduate school experiences. My >>>> graduate school experience has been a mixed bag of positive and negative >>>> experiences. However, I've found that overall the graduate school >>>> experience >>>> has not been everything that I hoped it would be. When I originally made >>>> the >>>> decision to go to graduate school I did so because I was interested in >>>> pursing an academic career (teaching/research). Personally, I am still >>>> on >>>> the fence about a research versus teaching position but giving the >>>> saturation of the job market the choice may be made for me (at the least >>>> at >>>> the entry level). However, in many ways I feel that graduate school has >>>> not >>>> prepared me as well as it could to become a professor. >>>> >>>> For instance opportunities to gain teaching experience are limited. TA's >>>> often do not provide lecture or lesson development opportunities and >>>> tend to >>>> be structured in advance. Some graduate students seem to enjoy this as >>>> it >>>> reduces their work load and provides time for research, which is >>>> certainly >>>> important, but it does seem to reduce opportunities for active >>>> engagement in >>>> teaching and development of teaching skills by graduate students. I was >>>> fortunate to partake in NSF GK-12 program which at least provided some >>>> of >>>> this experience albeit at the 7th grade level which may count for very >>>> little when it comes to acquiring a job. >>>> >>>> On the flip side looking at research I also find the graduate school >>>> experience failing to provide opportunities to help develop the skills I >>>> need to do research or one day run my own lab. Reduced library and >>>> departmental budgets make ready access to literature and software >>>> challenging. Additionally, I've been fortunate enough to write and >>>> secure my >>>> own fellowships and grants. However, being "only" a graduate student I >>>> am >>>> afforded little opportunity to actively engage in the management of >>>> those >>>> research funds. Managing large grants and fellowship funds seems like a >>>> rather useful skill to possess when exiting school with PhD. Instead >>>> much of >>>> the financial matters take place behind a veil of administration and >>>> bureaucracy until one day someone tell you that your out of $$. >>>> >>>> A former graduate student in the same department as mine once referred >>>> to >>>> graduate students as the "illegal immigrant workforce of the academic >>>> world." In many ways I think he is right. Many, but not all, graduate >>>> students work tremendously hard and long hours for little pay. Of course >>>> the >>>> pay doesn't bother me as much as some of the other issues. For one I >>>> find >>>> the level of healthcare coverage provided to graduate students to be >>>> ridiculously poor. I know of many graduate students that have suffered >>>> through pain simply because of the poor level of health care coverage or >>>> the >>>> hassle that low quality health care providers cause with each claim. >>>> Additionally, graduate students have very little rights within the >>>> university. I've known others and myself who have appealed to the >>>> Ombudsum >>>> or other intra-university avenues for legal advice and the general >>>> consensus >>>> is that we graduate students should just grin and bear whatever >>>> difficulties >>>> we are having with administration, advisors, or other faculty. We are >>>> after >>>> all ephemeral and if you can just deal with it for another couple years >>>> you >>>> can go away. It seems that there is an unfair conflict of interest when >>>> a >>>> graduate students wishes to bring a complaint against a university when >>>> the >>>> only avenues to do so are a part of the university system itself. It >>>> seems >>>> in the best interest of the university to protect itself rather than >>>> deal >>>> with an ephemeral graduate student's issues. >>>> >>>> Not to focus entirely on the glum. One opportunity graduate school has >>>> provided for me is the opportunity to work with a variety of >>>> governmental >>>> agencies and ngo's on natural resource issues. I've found that >>>> experience to >>>> extremely rewarding. So much so that I am considering working for an >>>> agency >>>> or organization such USFWS, USGS, or TNC upon graduating (if any >>>> positions >>>> exist!). Prior to graduate school I would have never considered a >>>> science >>>> based management or research position within the government. Whether or >>>> not >>>> all the time I have dedicated to working on applied natural resource >>>> management questions (e.g. reports and consultation) rather than >>>> producing >>>> copious amounts of publications will come back to haunt me remains to be >>>> seen. >>>> >>>> I will finish by saying that my comments are based primarily on my >>>> experience at my institution. Other people have had very different >>>> experiences at other institutions and even at my own. Every graduate >>>> student >>>> has different expectations of what they expect from graduate school. I >>>> realize they can't make everyone happy but I do feel that universities >>>> could >>>> do a little better. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tyler L Hicks >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Aaron T. Dossey, Ph.D. >>> Biochemistry and Molecular Biology >>> Founder/Owner: All Things Bugs >>> Capitalizing on Low-Crawling Fruit from Insect-Based Innovation >>> http://allthingsbugs.com/about/people/ >>> http://www.facebook.com/Allthingsbugs >>> 1-352-281-3643 >> >> >> > > > -- > Aaron T. Dossey, Ph.D. > Biochemistry and Molecular Biology > Founder/Owner: All Things Bugs > Capitalizing on Low-Crawling Fruit from Insect-Based Innovation > http://allthingsbugs.com/about/people/ > http://www.facebook.com/Allthingsbugs > 1-352-281-3643 -- ------------- Jane Shevtsov, Ph.D. Mathematical Biology Curriculum Writer, UCLA co-founder, www.worldbeyondborders.org “Those who say it cannot be done should not interfere with those who are doing it.” --attributed to Robert Heinlein, George Bernard Shaw and others
