Bjorn,
I agree with a lot of this and, as usual, would take it a bit farther:
I like your idea of some sort of public forum of scoring elements of
academia, particularly for grad students and postdocs to use. However, I
would allow the scoring of individual labs/faculty/facility (this
already exists for teaching BTW - what's that "rate my professor" site,
probably more than one?).
I have even brought this up several times in various venues where I have
been advocating for postdocs, however the idea is always shot down by
admin and faculty and they don't even want their postdocs to ask their
students to touch it with a mile long pole on their behalf, even as PI
and for corresponding authorship. Some have even suggested that doing
such a thing would result in slander or liable. Again, isn't the same
true of the "rate my professor" sites that already exist?
Anyone here want to create this "rate my PI/facility/lab" site with me?
(Frankly, the NIH and NSF should be doing this, and refusing money for
more trainees to faculty with poor reviews. Research is evaluated in
grant applications, why not mentorship?)
On 2/14/2013 5:31 PM, Bjorn Brooks wrote:
Thanks for sharing your story, but I worry now that some out there are
misunderstanding the original issue or taking Kevin's experiences as
trivial. As mentioned most people have good academic mentoring
experiences, but according to Kevin's blog on DSN not everyone does.
The blog is long but in reading the full story you will see
descriptions of curious or questionable acts coming from people in
positions of power (such as emotional outbursts, weird mind games, and
coercion). It's neither here nor there to comment on those, but the
first place any university student/faculty/staff should turn if they
believe they are victims of some unethical conduct is to their
university ombudsman. Most universities have already recognized the
need to deal with bad behavior and misunderstandings before they
become costly to their reputation, time, and legal costs.
But that's little consolation to Kevin now. And that doesn't stop the
problem in the first place. I did not see this blog entry as one
indicating a lack of time-commitment or talent. It seemed the real
problem was a lack of transparency about expectations from his boss
who may also have lacked the personal wherewithal to deal with the
stresses of managing grants and mentoring students. One fair way of
reducing these situations could be to shed light on departments in a
way that is fair. In this day and age of technology a motivated
organization/ group of academics could generate a website that allows
people to "score" their happiness in studying/working in a
department, and provide a place for narrative experiences.
These days people realize they have the right to document their
stories for all to see, as Kevin did. Read the blog comments and
you'll see people that had their sentiments offended and responded by
effectively calling him weak for 'boo-hooing' about his experience.
This is silly and makes it seem like academics are insensitive (or
turn a blind eye) to misbehavior by powerful people. If you are thick
skinned and don't mind working in a high-stress lab under someone with
a nasty attitude in favor of the potential payoff then you should be
allowed that. But everyone deserves to benefit from the
knowledge-base of previous experiences in labs/departments.
Bjorn Brooks
Department of Atmospheric Sciences
University of Illinois
http://climatemodeling.org/~bjorn/
On 02/14/2013 10:16 AM, Sarah Jack Hinners wrote:
OK, after a couple of days of thought, I'll take up the gauntlet.
Academia is extremely competitive. That's because there are a lot of
really smart people out there who want to do this work and not a lot
of positions available for them. That's a fact we can't get around.
If you want to survive in the ecology pond, you either need to be a
big, fast fish, or you need to be a fish that doesn't eat much. Or
you leave, and ecology becomes a hobby or side interest while you
make a living doing something else.
But in the pond, we can still be good to each other. During my time
in grad school, I had a life. I got married and started a family. It
took me 8 years to get my PhD. But at no time did anyone say I should
be working more instead of being with my family. And I did not work
nights and weekends. I always had the full support of my advisors,
committee and department. (Some of whom are on this list - you know
who you are, and thank you!)
I was on the verge of crawling out of the pond, but someone decided
to give me a chance, despite my unwillingness to commit to more than
40 hours a week. I now have a (non-tenure track) faculty position,
which is perfect for me right now because I STILL don't work nights
and weekends (usually anyway). I am not a big fish, but I'm in the
pond, well, a neighboring pond. And now as I work with grad
students, I support them in pursuing their own research interests and
in their desire to have a life outside of school (sometimes I need to
remind them). I can't change the competitiveness of academia, but
academia is made up of individuals. As one individual in the system,
I can affect my own little sphere of it, and I don't think, based on
other individuals that I know, that I'm particularly unusual. Not
every fish will be able to stay in the pond, but I personally will do
what I can to help the fish around me.
I wish the writer of the original blog every success in his new
endeavor, and I am happy he has found a supportive community. Hurray
for beer!
Sarah
Sarah Jack Hinners, PhD
Assistant Professor - Research
Metropolitan Research Center
City and Metropolitan Planning
University of Utah
375 S 1530 E rm 226
Salt Lake City, UT 84112
________________________________
From: Aaron T. Dossey<bugoc...@gmail.com>
To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] how we lose good scientists - silence?
"Nature intended me for the tranquil pursuits of science, by rendering
them my supreme delight. But the enormities of the times in which I have
lived, have forced me to take a part in resisting them, and to commit
myself on the boisterous ocean of political passions." -- Thomas
Jefferson
βIn the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the
silence of our friends.β β Martin Luther King Jr.
"If you see something, SAY SOMETHING." --<origin unknown>
On 2/13/2013 11:27 AM, malcolm McCallum wrote:
If scientists and academia are not willing to stand up for
themselves, who will?
On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 9:52 AM, Aaron T.
Dossey<bugoc...@gmail.com> wrote:
Complete silence. Could academia be feeling some shame here? .....
nah....
The article has a few new comments on the article itself though,
check them
out!
http://deepseanews.com/2013/02/19294/
https://www.facebook.com/notes/national-postdoc-union/ideas-for-expanding-opportunity-and-innovation-in-science-careers/279532325495663
On 2/11/2013 10:24 AM, Jarrett Byrnes wrote:
Colleagues,
I just read a piece that describes how one young bright and very
talented
scientist was lost to our profession. It's an open and honest
discussion of
one man's struggles with the way modern academia works, and how it
can make
use eat our young, as it were. I think it points out a lot of the
hidden
corners and the darker sides of how academic science currently
works -
things we make jokes about or shake our heads at, and sometimes,
in moments
of bravery, we confront and try to change. Heck, I'd like to
think that we
Ecologists are better than most other fields, but I know that to
not always
be the case.
The post is at http://deepseanews.com/2013/02/19294/
I think there is a lot in this piece to unpack. I know a some on
this list
or out in academia who will think that the author _should_ leave
science and
does not deserve to be here. And I'm sure that there are other
sides to the
story being told, etc. etc. The specifics, though, are less
important than
the broad patterns and themes it evinces.
Given the conversation is has spawned in comments, other blogs, and
Twitter, it is clear this is not an isolated story. It dovetails
with many
issues that we traditionally relegate to 'leaky pipeline'
discussions, but
are true regardless of gender - indeed, gender, race, class, and lack
privileged background often only amplify them.
The piece is worth reading, and then asking, what effect does
driving out
voices like this have on science as a whole? Are we better or
poorer for
such losses? Is this acceptable?
Food for thought.
-Jarrett
----------------------------------------
Jarrett Byrnes
Assistant Professor
Department of Biology
University of Massachusetts Boston
100 Morrissey Blvd.
Boston, MA 02125
617-287-3145
http://jarrettbyrnes.info
b: http://imachordata.com
t: @jebyrnes
g+: http://gplus.to/jebyrnes
--
Aaron T. Dossey, Ph.D.
Biochemistry and Molecular Biology
Founder/Owner: All Things Bugs
Capitalizing on Low-Crawling Fruit from Insect-Based Innovation
http://allthingsbugs.com/about/people/
http://www.facebook.com/Allthingsbugs
1-352-281-3643
--
Aaron T. Dossey, Ph.D.
Biochemistry and Molecular Biology
Founder/Owner: All Things Bugs
Capitalizing on Low-Crawling Fruit from Insect-Based Innovation
http://allthingsbugs.com/about/people/
http://www.facebook.com/Allthingsbugs
1-352-281-3643
