All:
By "respectable," I meant "main-stream ecology."
WT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Judith S. Weis" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2013 7:26 AM
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Human-assembled ecosystem
> Respectable journals won't publish applied material??? I can't let that
> pass unanswered. There are numerous respectable journals that focus on
> applied areas such as pollution, aquaculture, agriculture,
> silviculture,
> invasion biology, environmental management and so forth. Even ESA has a
> journal in Ecological Applications!
>
>
>> Some pretty damn good commentary, if a bit challenging to
>> intelligently
>> comment upon--mainly due to the scattered nature of the points alluded
>> to.
>>
>> While I, too, am looking forward to the citations, I would prefer a
>> separate
>> healthy discussion on Clements and "invasion biology" from those
>> well-versed
>> in both.
>>
>> "Applied folks" tend to be held in disdain by academics, and
>> "respectable"
>> journals usually do not deign to publish "applied" material. This,
>> too,
>> is
>> worthy of a separate discussion.
>>
>> I'd like to hear more about the "huge social component" with respect
>> to
>> "invasive" species, and would especially like to hear more about
>> academics'
>> discomfort in this regard. (What makes me most "uncomfortable" with
>> the
>> whole set of invasive species issues is that they seem to be a mile
>> wide
>> and
>> an inch deep--a fertile field, if you'll pardon the punny irony, for
>> academicians to dig deeper into. Perhaps then some of the folklore in
>> this
>> area of action-with-little-study can be clarified or disposed of. This
>> brings us back to one of the several reasons Ascension Island might be
>> instructive. Is it a "human-assembled" ecosystem or is it "just" an
>> assemblage of species, each of which is doing what it can, when it
>> can,
>> where it can? Ah-HA! This gets us close to the nitty-gritty of what an
>> ecosystem is--AND WHY! And perhaps more important, what an ecosystem
>> IS
>> NOT!
>>
>> While the concept of "novel ecosystems" does nauseate me, I'm open to
>> being
>> converted--and then falling from grace, as it were, perhaps yo-yo
>> like,
>> until the end of my days. What I think of it now already seems like
>> "blithering stupidity" to me, but I'm interested in cogent arguments
>> to
>> the
>> contrary.
>>
>> Ecological history has always fascinated me, and I hope someone will
>> bring
>> it all into focus soon! There was an interesting film treatment on
>> (the
>> History Channel?) what would happen after humans died out fairly
>> recently,
>> and while it was a good start, it seemed high on sensation and a bit
>> lacking
>> on references (well, what can we expect from show-biz?). Let's take
>> this
>> a
>> bit further into the nuts and bolts of evolution.
>>
>> WT
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Duffy" <[email protected]>
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 1:18 PM
>> Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Human-assembled ecosystem
>>
>>
>>> Hi Ian,
>>>
>>> "While plant ecology abandoned Clements a generation or two ago, like
>>> a
>>> lot
>>> of things that hasn't always trickled down to more applied areas."
>>>
>>> Just out of curiosity, can you cite a few references where Clements
>>> in
>>> still used in invasion biology, specifically in "more applied areas"?
>>>
>>> I admit it is annoying but applied folks tend not to publish and when
>>> they
>>> do, it is often in gray literature. Many academic biologists thus may
>>> have
>>> a relatively uninformed, Rumsfeldian knowledge of what happens on the
>>> ground. In addition, management of invasive species has a huge social
>>> component. Relatively few academics are familiar, much less
>>> comfortable,
>>> with this aspect. Finally there is the problem when protecting rare
>>> 'primary' forest that ivory tower academics serve albeit unwittingly
>>> as
>>> effective apologists for the destruction of the same. What does it
>>> matter
>>> if the forest goes? Super tramp species can often "provide the same
>>> services" and look forest. My best examples are all those novel
>>> forestry
>>> projects China has tried, like the Green Wall in its grasslands or
>>> the
>>> evergreen forests in heavy snow belts.
>>>
>>> It is sort of like regional cooking versus Western fast food.
>>> Macdonalds
>>> and Kentucky Fried Chicken can arguably provide nutrition and
>>> definitely
>>> taste great, but these invasive aliens threaten regional foods and
>>> indirectly local cultures. We can live in a world of Big Macs and
>>> fries,
>>> or
>>> we can sample baozi, feijoada, yak yogurt, gallo pinto,
>>> pachamanca/hangi,
>>> or callalo, although, personally having tried them, I will not much
>>> mourn
>>> the passing of muktuk, haggis, Vegemite, and guinea pig.
>>>
>>> Finally there is the arrogance of the present. Much of conservation
>>> biology
>>> is ultimately about preserving options for our children and their
>>> children's children. Our knowledge about "novel ecosystems" is
>>> basically
>>> recent and primitive, as is our knowledge of invasion biology. What
>>> seems
>>> like a good idea involving "novel ecosystems" may be seen as
>>> blithering
>>> stupidity a century from now, as new crop pests continue to arrive
>>> (elm,
>>> chestnut etc, etc), local diseases turn epidemic (SARS), fires
>>> rearrange
>>> the suburbs, and watersheds dry up. Not that the US lacks for its
>>> share.
>>>
>>> There is a marvelous field called ecological history. Cronon, Crosby,
>>> Pyne,
>>> McEvoy (to mention a few of my favorites) cover invasive species as
>>> part
>>> of a bigger picture which appears to be too often lacking in
>>> contemporary
>>> ecology. They are worth reading. Cows, grass, bees, Europeans were
>>> all
>>> invasive taxa that have now become part of the American landscape,
>>> dominants in "novel ecosystems". Had one asked the Sioux or Nez Perce
>>> in
>>> 1877 or 1890 whether cows or Europeans were invasive, well history
>>> speaks
>>> for itself.
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> David Duffy
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 7:01 AM, Ian Ramjohn <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> While plant ecology abandoned Clements a generation or two ago, like
>>>> a
>>>> lot
>>>> of things that hasn't always trickled down to more applied areas.
>>>>
>>>> For this stuff specifically, there's a whole literature on 'novel
>>>> ecosystems' that has developed in the last several years...Richard
>>>> Hobbs,
>>>> Ariel Lugo, Timothy Seasted, etc. Plenty by Lugo et al. on tropical
>>>> forest
>>>> systems.
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 29, 2013, at 6:49 PM, "David Duffy" <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > I'd suggest that before folks get too excited about challenges to
>>>> "our
>>>> > ideas regarding community assembly", they reread Gleason (1926),
>>>> Whittaker
>>>> > (1975) and Hubbell (2001), amongst others. Also isolated islands
>>>> > with
>>>> > depauperate faunas and floras may not be the best models for
>>>> > general
>>>> > ecological theory, although they have done pretty well for
>>>> > evolution.
>>>> >
>>>> > David Duffy
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 5:01 AM, Richard Boyce <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Here's a *very* interesting story on the human-assembled
>>>> >> ecosystems
>>>> of
>>>> >> Ascension Island in the tropical South Atlantic:
>>>> >>
>>>>
http://e360.yale.edu/feature/on_a_remote_island_lessons__in_how_ecosystems_function/2683/
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I suspect that further research here may challenge our ideas
>>>> regarding
>>>> >> community assembly.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> ================================
>>>> >> Richard L. Boyce, Ph.D.
>>>> >> Director, Environmental Science Program
>>>> >> Professor
>>>> >> Department of Biological Sciences, SC 150
>>>> >> Northern Kentucky University
>>>> >> Nunn Drive
>>>> >> Highland Heights, KY 41099 USA
>>>> >>
>>>> >> 859-572-1407 (tel.)
>>>> >> 859-572-5639 (fax)
>>>> >> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
>>>> >> http://www.nku.edu/~boycer/
>>>> >> =================================
>>>> >>
>>>> >> "One of the advantages of being disorderly is that one is
>>>> >> constantly
>>>> >> making exciting discoveries." - A.A. Milne
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> >
>>>> > Pacific Cooperative Studies Unit
>>>> > Botany
>>>> > University of Hawaii
>>>> > 3190 Maile Way
>>>> > Honolulu Hawaii 96822 USA
>>>> > 1-808-956-8218
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Pacific Cooperative Studies Unit
>>> Botany
>>> University of Hawaii
>>> 3190 Maile Way
>>> Honolulu Hawaii 96822 USA
>>> 1-808-956-8218
>>
