Jeff, I think we are on the same wave length here, but I have a couple more
points I'd like to clarify. Sorry, if I'm beating this to death (Some have
already hit the delete button, I'm sure.), but I have a genuine desire to
feel like I know where you are coming from on this topic. So, please
excuse one more attempt at clarity.
(I'd also love to hear other people's ideas. Sandra's were helpful to me.)
Jeff wrote:
> Eric, i'm not sure what positions you are trying to contrast.
> If it is whether to attempt to change others or to change oneself then
> i think we can do both and for me the balance between the two is
> an individual choice.
I'm not sure I'm trying to "contrast" positions, but perhaps this is a
technicality so I'll accept that word for now. I had the word "AND" in
capitals twice before the part you quoted. Perhaps I was focusing on the
two ideas to the exclusions of others, but I wasn't looking for a this or
that answer.
I agree with the balance being an individual choice; it could be nothing
but an individual choice. I certainly agree that both can be done. In
fact, I'd say that everyone is always "doing", "being", "thinking" and
"influencing" all at the same time in varying proportions -- and doing a
half a dozen others things as well. I don't think it a matter of this or
that; something I'm sure we agree on.
> Maybe you don't like the idea of life being a process?
I see no way for life to anything other than a process. Again, I think my
choice of words must not have been so good. I subscribe to the saying that
"the only certainty is change." I believe life is a process and we are
active participants within our own lives and in the lives of others. As
you mentioned, we are continually influenced by many people, experiences,
places, events, etc. To a degree we can also choose the kinds of
influences we want in our lives.
> I believe that the future is dynamic and we can't force one
> viewpoint on it. We can influence the future in many ways and this
> is best done as part of an on going process. We learn, we adjust,
> we accept feedback, we let others do the same. This is a learning
> process that can sustain itself. Can we build a sustainable
> culture in another way? If you try to force it then the force tool
> often becomes part of the culture and this isn't sustainable. For
> example, it is difficult to create a peaceful culture using
> violence.
I agree; we, as individuals, have no control of the future, though we have
some amount of influence, especially with our own future and those of a few
individuals close to us. I have trouble with your switch from "influence"
to "force." I'm not sure if your are making a separate point, or if you
thought I was suggested forcing some ideas on others. I certainly do not
think the forcing ideas is effective, and it usually is very unpleasant.
> I don't know what would work best for an Eskimo. I don't know what
> anyone on this list should do. Sometimes i'm not sure what to do
> myself. What i do believe is that when you get down to individuals
> the choices are important. Most of us know things we can do. It
> is the belief that we can't make a difference or that we need a
> grand solution or that someone needs to lead us that prevents
> progress.
I agree that we need to do what we can and need to avoid letting the scale
of the situation overwhelm us.
But the last two paragraphs again bring up a point of view that I'm not
sure if you are saying or not. So here are my main questions for you (I'd
love to hear others' responses, too.)
1) Are you saying that we should just do what we choose to do and let
others do the same, without any intentional influence on others?
2) If you agree with #1, do you feel it is enough to bring about a society
that can live in harmony with Nature?
3) Are you saying we can ONLY do #1, as opposed to "should"? And, if so,
do you feel it will be enough?
4) Do you think it is possible to intentionally influence people without
"forcing" ideas on them?
5) Do you think it is best to restrict our "influencing" to the processes
of change, rather than specific ideas?
6) If you agree with #5, how then do you feel about books which tend to be
more about specific ideas?
7) Am I still missing something and way off base?
I thought I knew what you were saying a few times, but phrases like "I
don't know what anyone on this list should do." and "Most of us know things
we can do." and " We learn, we adjust, we accept feedback, we let others do
the same." make me think you are trying to say "We shouldn't try to
influence people, but instead let them figure things out for themselves."
If you ARE saying this, then I am not sure if you think this because you
believe everyone will naturally move toward harmony with Nature, or believe
it isn't important that we move toward harmony with Nature, or believe the
future to be so unpredictable that we shouldn't worry about what it will be
like.
You wrote:" We learn, we adjust, we accept feedback, we let others do the
same." Do you feel we can/ can not / should / should not / must / must not
"help" others do the same?
I'll drop this thread after I hear your responses. I'm sure it time to
move on to other things. Thanks for your patience.
Eric:
