Rob,
Just curious....while I'm sure you're correct in asserting that you've
reduced VAN costs by 90% overall, what's the offsetting cost by using IPNet
and establishing and securing your Internet interface?
Rachel
Marlo is correct. Valspar has been using IPNet for 5 months. We have
reduced our VAN costs by 90% overall. The system and process has also been
quite dependable.
NOTE: Be sure to avoid long term minimum volume contracts with VAN's,
because eventually we will all be using something like the IPNet
communication method.
Rob McHattie
-----Original Message-----
From: Marlo Malletz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 3:00 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Secure EDI - xml
All - for you interested in doing secure data (any type of data) transport
over the internet please check out www.ipnetsolutions.com
<http://www.ipnetsolutions.com> .
We provide a software solution to help you transport secure EDI using the
below mentioned protocols (EDI-INT ), as well XML data, should you decide
down the road that XML works for your organization. We have VAN support
built into the software as well.
Marlo Malletz
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Kusiak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 3:44 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: More Words of Current Wisdom on XML
Scott,
Secure Internet protocols such as S/MIMI, HTTP/ssl or FTP/ssl exist, and
your right
to say they are there. But they are new technology. Most businesses are
fickle about
placing "critical information" on the internet. Invoicing information is a
case in
point. It has always been left up to the desires of the two or more involved
parties as
to their abilities to compromise on the point. It definitely requires a
shift in the
"existing" paradigm. My point on this statement is that EDI data can be
transported
across the internet. The Paradigm here is that the internet is an unsecured
media.
The afore mentioned protocols may be secure, but that has yet to be proved
as the
end all solution. They need a little more burn in so to speak.
I have not seen a browser handle EDI data, but I've also never seen a
browser load
anything into an application either which is exactly my point. The browser
also
will not load XML data into an application.
Where are the savings of being able to move to XML so that I must hire large
work forces to handle what I currently have happening today by machine?
These are the issues being dealt with in the field. The only solution is how
long can I push this out so that I'm not forced into doing these things by
the
800 Lb Gorilla......
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Jolly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 11:35 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: More Words of Current Wisdom on XML
Mark Kusiak wrote:
> I agree with Brian. I also read the article. One issue mentioned was
> that EDI dataCANNOT be sent across the INTERNET. WRONG, it can as long
> as you don't mindeveryone else having access to and utilization of the
> information.
>
> What happened to S/MIME and HTTP/ssl or even FTP/ssl? When companies
> use the Internet as
> a transport, they need to think about how secure the data needs to be
> when working out the details with
> partners.
>
>
>
> EDI likeXML can be routed across the internet.
>
> The persons who can build the mouse trap which allows for the
> securing of thedata over the internet that is generic yet secure, will
> be in a good position.I am looking at XML closely and it's great if
> you want to have get and display(XML's version of rip and read) with
> very little interface with an application.It's great if you want to
> have a clerk read the information off of a displayedform and enter the
> information into your application. Making it so a human doesnot have
> to enter the data into the application is where the cost of
> exchangingelectronic formats are highest. XML does not solve this
> problem or reduce thosecosts associated with it.
>
>
> I would argue these points. Never before have vendors pledged and
> started to
> deliver on having there applications produce and accept XML. I have
> seen press release and
> demos from folks like SAP, Peoplesoft, JD Edwards, Great Plains,
> Microsoft and Oracle that all are
> working on having XML as the input or output.
>
> Ever see Internet Explorer or Netscape Communicator 6.0 handle EDI
> data???
>
> I have been around EDI for about 10 years. I was supporting M2/4 at a
> carrier when TDCC was still in
> use and was in awe when most carriers started to use 003020. I
> realize that several years may pass before
> all of the wrinkles are ironed out with XML, I place hope in the ebXML
> effort to standardize some of the issues.
>
> One will still have to write the interfaces that arethe most expensive
> portion of the process with more robustness piled on to handlethe
> things that XML will "pass on to the application". If "the
> application" isa human being, then it becomes a training issue, if
> it's a computer program, itbecomes an even more expensive proposition.
> Sorry to the SME who was suppose tobenefit from the reduced costs of
> XML!!!
>
> I don't think this is about the SME, it is about the larger company
> that using the Internet can reach all of his partners
> in a cheaper more effiecient way than doing tradationally more expense
> VAN based EDI (some of my best friends work at VAN's).
>
> When viewing a web form (and not a fax), it really doesn't matter if
> it started as XML or EDI, just that it is no longer a fax handled
> individually by the sender and that the response from the SME is not
> going to be touched by a person, but go all the way to the system of
> record...
>
>
> Scott
> "all opinions are strictly my own"
>
> XML is the same buzz word that EDI was twenty years ago.EDI needs to
> get to the internet so that there is a deliverable working
> processwhich doesn't cost an arm and a leg to move data. Even a first
> class mailing inUS costs $.35. My point is that it costs to move data
> around and will continue tocost as time goes on..... Mark-----Original
> Message-----From: Brian Lehrhoff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent:
> Wednesday, January 31, 2001 7:54 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
> Re: More Words of Current Wisdom on XML Ok, I've read the "article."
> Doesn't EDI fix most of the problems that hesays are broken features
> in XML? I get challenged constantly with "Thismethodology seems to
> work pretty good, but, if anyone can come up with abetter one that
> works i'll gladly take a look at it." And I'd sure like a piece of
> that 12 month, $1,000,000 project to fixsomething that isn't
> broken. "William J. Kammerer" wrote: > Thanks to Greg Olsen, of
> Contivo, Inc., for discovering this gem. See> "Technologists Debate
> the Best Way to Implement XML," by Peter Lucas,> published 01/22/01 on
> Ecomworld.com. Anytime you let a "journalist"> loose with a word
> processor, misquotes, havoc and lies invariably> abound. Even so, the
> trash to text ratio in this one is so excessive> that a mere two
> snippets hardly do it justice. Read for yourself at>
> http://www.ecomworld.com/online/columns/read.cfm?contentid=381.>> "In
> addition, structures defining XML documents are inherently>
> simpler...The structure is so simple that e-mail can qualify as an
> XML> document.">> "...Unicode, an 18-bit coding language created by
> Microsoft Corp,> Redmond, Wash,...supports 64,000 definitions per
> character and can> translate documents written in almost any
> language.">> William J. Kammerer> FORESIGHT Corp.> 4950 Blazer
> Memorial Pkwy.> Dublin, OH USA 43017-3305> +1 614 791-1600>> Visit
> FORESIGHT Corp. at http://www.foresightcorp.com/> "Commerce for a New
> World">>
> =======================================================================>
> To contact the list owner: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Archives at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/edi-l%40listserv.ucop.edu/ --%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> cut here %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%Brian Lehrhoff ([EMAIL PROTECTED])EDI
> ConsultanteB2B Commerce212-703-2121%%%%%%%%%%%%% cut here
> %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
=======================================================================Todiv
> > contact the list owner: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/edi-l%40listserv.ucop.edu/
------_=_NextPart_001_01C08BCF.7BE37810
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=125173521-31012001>Marlo
is correct. Valspar has been using IPNet for 5 months. We have
reduced our VAN costs by 90% overall. The system and process has also
been
quite dependable. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=125173521-31012001>NOTE:
Be sure to avoid long term minimum volume contracts with VAN's, because
eventually we will all be using something like the IPNet communication
method.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=125173521-31012001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=125173521-31012001>Rob
McHattie</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Marlo Malletz
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January
31,
2001 3:00 PM<BR><B>To:</B> [EMAIL PROTECTED]<BR><B>Subject:</B>
Secure
EDI - xml<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=346145420-31012001>All
- for you interested in doing secure data (any type of data)
transport
over the internet please check out <A
href="http://www.ipnetsolutions.com">www.ipnetsolutions.com</A>.</SPAN></FON
T></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=346145420-31012001>We
provide a software solution to help you transport secure EDI using the
below
mentioned protocols (EDI-INT ), as well XML data, should you
decide
down the road that XML works for your organization. We have VAN support
built
into the software as well.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=346145420-31012001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=346145420-31012001>Marlo Malletz</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><SPAN
class=346145420-31012001></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT
color=#0000ff
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial
size=2></FONT><BR><FONT size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
Mark
Kusiak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 31,
2001 3:44 PM<BR><B>To:</B> [EMAIL PROTECTED]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
More
Words of Current Wisdom on XML<BR><BR></FONT></DIV></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT size=2>Scott,</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Secure Internet protocols such as S/MIMI, HTTP/ssl or
FTP/ssl exist, and your right</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>to say they are there. But they are new technology.
Most
businesses are fickle about </FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>placing "critical information" on the internet.
Invoicing
information is a case in </FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>point. It has always been left up to the desires of
the
two or more involved parties as </FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>to their abilities to compromise on the point. It
definitely requires a shift in the </FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>"existing" paradigm. My point on this statement is
that
EDI data can be transported</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>across the internet. The Paradigm here is that the
internet is an unsecured media. </FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The afore mentioned protocols may be secure, but that
has
yet to be proved as the </FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>end all solution. They need a little more burn in so
to
speak.</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I have not seen a browser handle EDI data, but I've
also
never seen a browser load </FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>anything into an application either which is exactly
my
point. The browser also </FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>will not load XML data into an application.</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Where are the savings of being able to move to XML so
that
I must hire large </FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>work forces to handle what I currently have happening
today by machine?</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>These are the issues being dealt with in the field.
The
only solution is how </FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>long can I push this out so that I'm not forced into
doing
these things by the </FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>800 Lb Gorilla......</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Mark</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>From: Scott Jolly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 11:35 AM</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Subject: Re: More Words of Current Wisdom on
XML</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Mark Kusiak wrote:</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> I agree with Brian. I also read the article. One
issue mentioned was</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> that EDI dataCANNOT be sent across the INTERNET.
WRONG, it can as long</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> as you don't mindeveryone else having access to
and
utilization of the</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> information.</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> What happened to S/MIME and HTTP/ssl or even
FTP/ssl?
When companies</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> use the Internet as</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> a transport, they need to think about how secure
the
data needs to be</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> when working out the details with</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> partners.</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> EDI likeXML can be routed across the
internet.</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> The persons who can build the mouse trap which
allows
for the</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> securing of thedata over the internet that is
generic
yet secure, will</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> be in a good position.I am looking at XML closely
and
it's great if</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> you want to have get and display(XML's version of
rip
and read) with</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> very little interface with an application.It's
great
if you want to</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> have a clerk read the information off of a
displayedform and enter the</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> information into your application. Making it so a
human doesnot have</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> to enter the data into the application is where
the
cost of</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> exchangingelectronic formats are highest. XML
does
not solve this</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> problem or reduce thosecosts associated with
it.</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> I would argue these points. Never before have
vendors
pledged and</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> started to</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> deliver on having there applications produce and
accept XML. I have</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> seen press release and</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> demos from folks like SAP, Peoplesoft, JD
Edwards,
Great Plains,</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> Microsoft and Oracle that all are</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> working on having XML as the input or
output.</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> Ever see Internet Explorer or Netscape
Communicator
6.0 handle EDI</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> data???</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> I have been around EDI for about 10 years. I was
supporting M2/4 at a</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> carrier when TDCC was still in</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> use and was in awe when most carriers started to
use
003020. I</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> realize that several years may pass before</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> all of the wrinkles are ironed out with XML, I
place
hope in the ebXML</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> effort to standardize some of the issues.</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> One will still have to write the interfaces that
arethe most expensive</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> portion of the process with more robustness piled
on
to handlethe</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> things that XML will "pass on to the
application". If
"the</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> application" isa human being, then it becomes a
training issue, if</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> it's a computer program, itbecomes an even more
expensive proposition.</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> Sorry to the SME who was suppose tobenefit from
the
reduced costs of</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> XML!!!</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> I don't think this is about the SME, it is about
the
larger company</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> that using the Internet can reach all of his
partners</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> in a cheaper more effiecient way than doing
tradationally more expense</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> VAN based EDI (some of my best friends work at
VAN's).</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> When viewing a web form (and not a fax), it
really
doesn't matter if</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> it started as XML or EDI, just that it is no
longer a
fax handled</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> individually by the sender and that the response
from
the SME is not</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> going to be touched by a person, but go all the
way
to the system of</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> record...</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> Scott</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> "all opinions are strictly my own"</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> XML is the same buzz word that EDI was twenty
years
ago.EDI needs to</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> get to the internet so that there is a
deliverable
working</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> processwhich doesn't cost an arm and a leg to
move
data. Even a first</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> class mailing inUS costs $.35. My point is that
it
costs to move data</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> around and will continue tocost as time goes
on.....
Mark-----Original</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> Message-----From: Brian Lehrhoff
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent:</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> Wednesday, January 31, 2001 7:54 AMTo:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> Re: More Words of Current Wisdom on XML Ok, I've
read
the "article."</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> Doesn't EDI fix most of the problems that hesays
are
broken features</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> in XML? I get challenged constantly with
"Thismethodology seems to</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> work pretty good, but, if anyone can come up with
abetter one that</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> works i'll gladly take a look at it." And I'd
sure
like a piece of</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> that 12 month, $1,000,000 project to fixsomething
that isn't</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> broken. "William J. Kammerer" wrote: > Thanks
to
Greg Olsen, of</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> Contivo, Inc., for discovering this gem. See>
"Technologists Debate</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> the Best Way to Implement XML," by Peter
Lucas,>
published 01/22/01 on</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> Ecomworld.com. Anytime you let a "journalist">
loose with a word</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> processor, misquotes, havoc and lies
invariably>
abound. Even so, the</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> trash to text ratio in this one is so
excessive>
that a mere two</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> snippets hardly do it justice. Read for yourself
at></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>>
http://www.ecomworld.com/online/columns/read.cfm?contentid=381.>>
"In</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> addition, structures defining XML documents are
inherently></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> simpler...The structure is so simple that e-mail
can
qualify as an</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> XML> document.">> "...Unicode, an 18-bit
coding language created by</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> Microsoft Corp,> Redmond, Wash,...supports
64,000
definitions per</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> character and can> translate documents written
in
almost any</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> language.">> William J. Kammerer>
FORESIGHT
Corp.> 4950 Blazer</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> Memorial Pkwy.> Dublin, OH USA 43017-3305>
+1
614 791-1600>> Visit</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> FORESIGHT Corp. at
http://www.foresightcorp.com/>
"Commerce for a New</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> World">></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>>
=======================================================================><
/FON>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> To contact the list owner:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Archives at</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>>
http://www.mail-archive.com/edi-l%40listserv.ucop.edu/
--%%%%%%%%%%%%%</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> cut here %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%Brian Lehrhoff
([EMAIL PROTECTED])EDI</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> ConsultanteB2B Commerce212-703-2121%%%%%%%%%%%%%
cut
here</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
=======================================================================To</F
ONT>div>
<FONT size=2>> contact the list owner:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] at</FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=2>>
http://www.mail-archive.com/edi-l%40listserv.ucop.edu/</FONT>
<DIV><FONT
size=+0></FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DI
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