Sylvia, Thank you for that clarification. Early in my involvement in UBL I seem to recall that there was a "black box" other than EDIFIX. However, you do reinforce one of my points: X12.7 is clear enough for GEFEG to implement, and therefore CICA is not dependent on DISA's black box ;^).
Mike At 03:43 PM 1/21/2005 -0800, Sylvia Webb wrote: >Mike: >In answer to your question: Didn't Gunther or someone in the UBL TC build >one for you guys? I >bet I could build one from the UBL specs with enough time and money. > >NO. UBL is created and maintained by EDIFIX from GEFEG. All EDIFIX internal >files are written in XML and viewable with any plain text editor. > >EDIFIX also supports UN/CEFACT ATG2 naming and design rules, schema >generation, and soon CICA. > >We fully support and endorse international standards. At the same time we >recognize that everyone doesn't use them. Our software supports a wide >variety of national and international standards. > > >Sylvia Webb >GEFEG US >310-370-3410 - Voice >310-370-5614 - Fax > <http://www.gefeg.com/> www.gefeg.com - Internet > > > > _____ > >From: Mike Rawlins [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 1:42 PM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: [EDI-L] X12 CICA: Is it the future? Does anyone really "model"? > > >CICA "proprietary"? Get real! Methinks you doth exaggerate! CICA >certainly isn't "proprietary" in the usual sense in which that term is used >in IT. ANSI ASC X12 takes great pains to conform to ANSI rules for >accreditation for open standards development. I'll bet you a cold beer, >Mark, that X12's last audit by ANSI makes anything you've been through with >the OASIS TC look like a day at the beach. If we want to be pejorative, >then "parochial", "provincial", or "hick" could be used in place of >"national" (as opposed to "international"), but "proprietary"? No way! > >So what's wrong with black boxes anyway? Yeah, DISA built one for >CICA. Didn't Gunther or someone in the UBL TC build one for you guys? I >bet I could build one from the UBL specs with enough time and money. I >have high regard for your abilities, Mark, and I'll bet that if you read >X12.7 a few more times you could build your own black box for CICA. So, >no, CICA doesn't depend on a black box any more than UBL or UN/CEFACT's XML >development. Don't sue us if we decide to use one rather than hand-code >schemas. Aren't we all supposed to be model-driven now anyway? Like, let >the business analysts focus on concepts, and not worry about code? People >keep telling me this is a good thing ;^) > >Regardless of your intent, your comments come across as >brick-throwing. This elusive "convergence" that we all seem to want isn't >aided by exaggeration or misrepresentation. Can we tone it down and just >talk about what our respective organizations are doing without bashing the >other guys? (God, I hate election years! The fallout from this one has >been absolutely poisonous...) > >Cheers, > >Mike > >At 02:37 PM 1/21/2005 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > >William, > > > >Even more important than the UBL schema themselves is their reliance on > >open standards and their underlying standards based library of ISO > >15000-5 Business Information Entities. Also supporting the UBL BIEs and > >ready for prime time consumption is the UN/CEFACT library of context > >neutral core components and soon to be released expanded library of > >business information entities. UBL's XML Schema Naming and Design Rules > >fully support ISO 15000-5/11179. The main difference between the UBL > >and UN/CEFACT approaches and CICA is that whereas on the one hand CICA > >is proprietary, UBL and UN/CEFACT are using open standards to develop > >their process models, libraries, and XML schema. Whereas CICA requires > >the use of the X12 Black Box, UBL and UN/CEFACT schemas can be created > >by anyone using any tool. Whereas CICA is targeting North America, UBL > >and UN/CEFACT are targeting the rest of the world and are already > >experiencing adoption by public and private sector interests. > > > >Mark > >Mark R. Crawford > >Senior Research Fellow - LMI XML Lead > >W3C Advisory Committee, OASIS, RosettaNet Representative > >Vice Chair - OASIS UBL TC > >Chair - UN/CEFACT XML Syntax Working Group > >Editor - UN/CEFACT Core Components > > > > > >LMI Government Consulting > >2000 Corporate Ridge > >McLean, VA 22102-7805 > >703.917.7177 Phone > >703.655.4810 Wireless > >The opportunity to make a difference has never been greater. > > > >www.lmi.org > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: William J. Kammerer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 7:21 PM > > > To: EDI-L Mailing List > > > Subject: Re: [EDI-L] X12 CICA: Is it the future? Does anyone > > > really "mod el"? > > > > > > > > > Thanks. I'm not gonna live forever. So I guess you're > > > saying that if a trading partner and I are willing to play > > > around with XML now, that I have nowhere to go for a usable > > > PO other than UBL. There's the notion of "time to market," > > > pal. Is the XML e-business standards ship done sailed as far > > > as X12 is concerned? > > > > > > I learned EDI by reading a couple PIDX and VICS books and > > > looking at their examples. I vaguely knew enough about the > > > structure of X12 long before I ever had to tackle X12.5 and > > > X12.6 which described the syntax using BNF. So I guess I > > > don't want to have to read X12.7 and "imagine" > > > what a PO would look like. I want an XML schema or example > > > now. Where are some examples - even if incomplete - of XML > > > messages based on CICA? > > > > > > Thanks in Advance. > > > > > > William J. Kammerer > > > Novannet, LLC. > > > Columbus, OH 43221-3859 . USA > > > +1 (614) 487-0320 > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Mike Rawlins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: "EDI-L Mailing List" <[email protected]> > > > Sent: Thursday, 20 January, 2005 06:33 PM > > > Subject: Re: [EDI-L] X12 CICA: Is it the future? Does anyone > > > really "mod el"? > > > > > > > > > > > > At 05:42 PM 1/20/2005 -0500, William J. Kammerer wrote: > > > > > > >But are the "more definitive descriptions of CICA" available > > > for free? > > > > > > As noted, the reference model may be freely downloaded. > > > > > > >What am I to look for in the catalog at DISA? How much does it cost? > > > >Is this some not-ready-for-prime-time report that's being sold for an > > > >arm-and-a-leg? > > > > > > The approved X12.7 standard appears currently to only be available as > > > part > > > of 005020. I believe it may also be avaliable through other > > > channels. I'll post the details if I find out. > > > > > > >The UBL stuff (documentation and schemas) is available > > > >for *free* at the OASIS site. If I wanted to "do" a purchase order - > > > >today - in XML, assured that the model and schemas conform to ebXML > > > >CCTS > > > >[ISO 15000(-5)] and ISO 11179 , would I have any choice but to use > > > >OASIS' UBL? > > > > > > Sure you would have choices! You could create your own XML PO that > > > complied with those specs. But if you don't want to do that, I'm not > > > aware > > > at this point of any choices other than UBL. I'm sure UN/CEFACT, X12, > > > and > > > perhaps other bodies will be able to present you with other choices > > > eventually. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Michael C. Rawlins, Rawlins EC Consulting > > > www.rawlinsecconsulting.com > > > Using XML with Legacy Business Applications (Addison-Wesley, 2003) > > > www.awprofessional.com/titles/0321154940 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > Please use the following Message Identifiers as your subject > > > prefix: <SALES>, <JOBS>, <LIST>, <TECH>, <MISC>, <EVENT>, <OFF-TOPIC> > > > Access the list online at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EDI-L > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >. > >Please use the following Message Identifiers as your subject prefix: > ><SALES>, <JOBS>, <LIST>, <TECH>, <MISC>, <EVENT>, <OFF-TOPIC> > >Access the list online at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EDI-L > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------- >Michael C. Rawlins, Rawlins EC Consulting >www.rawlinsecconsulting.com >Using XML with Legacy Business Applications (Addison-Wesley, 2003) >www.awprofessional.com/titles/0321154940 > > > >. >Please use the following Message Identifiers as your subject prefix: ><SALES>, <JOBS>, <LIST>, <TECH>, <MISC>, <EVENT>, <OFF-TOPIC> >Access the list online at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EDI-L > > > > > _____ > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > >* To visit your group on the web, go to: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EDI-L/ > > >* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] ><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service ><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >. >Please use the following Message Identifiers as your subject prefix: ><SALES>, <JOBS>, <LIST>, <TECH>, <MISC>, <EVENT>, <OFF-TOPIC> >Access the list online at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EDI-L > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- Michael C. Rawlins, Rawlins EC Consulting www.rawlinsecconsulting.com Using XML with Legacy Business Applications (Addison-Wesley, 2003) www.awprofessional.com/titles/0321154940 . Please use the following Message Identifiers as your subject prefix: <SALES>, <JOBS>, <LIST>, <TECH>, <MISC>, <EVENT>, <OFF-TOPIC> Access the list online at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EDI-L Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EDI-L/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
