On Wed, 8 Dec 1999, Joe Ward wrote, in response to part of my reply to
Mike Wogan:
MW> If there is a pre-post measurement of self-confidence, then you need a
MW> mixed model Anova, with Training vs. No Training as the between groups
MW> factor and Pre-Post as the within groups factor.
>
DB> This sure must sound scary to someone who's having trouble with
DB> the first semester of an elementary stats course!
> -------------- Joe Ward writes ------
> Hi Don, et al --
>
> While it seems that the question is stimulated from a student's
> assignment, it seems to me that students should be given the "power
> they deserve" to do something useful when they complete their course
> of instruction.
No argument with that. Not clear that the student in question
_had_ been given that power, though; & seemed pretty clear that s/he
hadn't taken up any such power!
> You indicated that--
>
> "This sure must sound scary to someone who's having trouble with
> the first semester of an elementary stats course!"
> IT SHOULD NOT BE SCARY.
> If students can't "control for the uncontrollable" such as "PRE-TEST", or
> GENDER, etc. then they are not being given what they deserve in
> A NON-CALCULUS ELEMENTARY STATS COURSE.
I couldn't agree more. But I'd be tempted to wager that for a
student whose mind was blank (as I recall the original post) on a
question related to a simple t test, Mike's "mixed model Anova, with
Training vs. No Training as the between groups factor and Pre-Post as the
within groups factor" must be _terra_omnino_incognita_. And, therefore,
scary.
> I realize that I am an "outlier" in what I believe to be a lack of
> SALESMANSHIP about the power that statistics can give students --
> before they are "turned off".
Mmm. Mayhap. But as someone else recently observed in another context,
only in the rare event (= outlier) will the mother-lode be found.
> But talented high school students can do it -- so why not college
> students?
Wasn't clear to me that that WAS a college student.
May have been, of course; but there was no unambiguous evidence on the
point -- at least, not that I remember.
> But I get more cynical in my old age!
Now, now, Joe: Curmudgeonly is not the same as cynical!
-- Don.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Donald F. Burrill [EMAIL PROTECTED]
348 Hyde Hall, Plymouth State College, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MSC #29, Plymouth, NH 03264 603-535-2597
184 Nashua Road, Bedford, NH 03110 603-471-7128
