I'd like to make a somewhat related point. There are many educational
tools that I've found have a great effect on non-statisticians. One if these
is to take one of their datasets, randomly permute the column of Y-values,
go through their data mining procedure, and see what it finds. The more
that it finds, the more the client becomes properly afraid of the technique
and respectful of the statistician's careful approach. -Frank Harrell
"Silvert, Henry" wrote:
> I respectfully disagree with Michael Wyatt. I come from an academic
> background and now work outside of academia, except for the occassional
> course here or there. I too report to a manager or managers, depending on
> the circumstances. But my experiences have not been the same as his. I am
> constantly urged to use all my skills as a statistician and a research
> methodologist by "my managers." (Horrid!!!)
>
> Henry M. Silvert PHD
> Research Statistician
> The Conference Board
> 845 3rd. Avenue
> New York, NY 10022
> Tel. No.: (212) 339-0438
> Fax No.: (212) 836-3825
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 7:52 AM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: Data Mining blooper and Related Subjects
> >
> > ...And it extends even further. Many of us who toil in areas outside of
> > academia have our work and productivity "supervised" by managers or
> > directors who have little or no training in statistics, beyond a survey
> > course. They receive the flashy brochures and read the ads that promise
> > analytical software that will provide significant information, without
> > the bother of of formulating one of those fancy-shmancy hypotheses.
> >
> > The higher-ups come to view data mining, decision support, outcomes
> > analysis, & etc. as requiring no more skill than the ability to use a PC.
> > I call it "The Myth of the Statistical Meat Grinder". The push of a
> > button or two will generate the answer to all corporate questions, plus a
> > few neat-o graphs for the board of directors packets.
> >
> > Michael T. Wyatt, Ph.D.
> > (Embittered) Healthcare Analyst
> > Quality Improvement Dept.
> > DCH Regional Medical Center
> > Tuscaloosa, AL
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 26 Apr 2000 11:38:28 -0400 dennis roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > writes:
> > > At 07:57 AM 4/26/00 -0500, Herman Rubin wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > >It does not surprise me one bit. The typical statistics
> > > >course teaches statistical methods and pronouncements, with
> > > >no attempt to achieve understanding. .... snip of more
> > >
> > > this is something i happen to agree with herman about ... but, it is
> > > a much
> > > broader problem than can be attributed to what happens in one course
> > >
> > > it is an attitude about what higher education is all about ... and
> > > what the
> > > goals are for it
> > >
> > > 'going to college' ... be it undergraduate level or graduate level
> > > ... has
> > > become a much more hit and miss experience, residence has little
> > > meaning
> > > ... that is being tailored more and more to the convenience of
> > > students ...
> > > and to what is 'user' friendly (or it won't SELL). studying
> > > principles in
> > > disciplines is hard work ... NOT user friendly ... so, less and less
> > > is
> > > being required in the way of diligent study.
> > >
> > > take graduate school for example ... there was a time, was there not
> > > ...
> > > where doctoral students were REALLY expected to be responsible for
> > > their
> > > dissertations AND were expected to be the experts in that particular
> > > area
> > > of inquiry ... AND to be competent enough to have done the work
> > > him/herself
> > > ... and to UNDERSTAND it .. ie, BE ABLE TO DEFEND ALL OF IT
> > >
> > > but, what i have noticed over many years is that dissertations are
> > > becoming
> > > more of a committee effort ... yes, the student MAY have had the
> > > idea
> > > (though not necessarily) but, from there ... he/she gets help with
> > > the
> > > design ... has someone else do the analysis (because he/she did not
> > > take
> > > any/sufficient work in analytic methods to understand what is going
> > > on) ...
> > > gets help in writing and editing .. and, even gets help in terms of
> > > what
> > > their results MEAN ...
> > >
> > > gives new meaning to the term: "cooperative learning"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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--
Frank E Harrell Jr
Professor of Biostatistics and Statistics
Division of Biostatistics and Epidemiology
Department of Health Evaluation Sciences
University of Virginia School of Medicine
http://hesweb1.med.virginia.edu/biostat
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