the problem of course with your statement is the humongous
overgeneralization you are making ... which, obviously cannot be true
i for one do not like dissertations that use existing data ... primarily
because the questions the students really want answers for are only those
possible by the data ... and not necessarily those that the student really
wants to pursue ... so, the main questions or research hypotheses fade to
the realities of the data ... RATHER than collecting the data that will
really answer his/her questions ...
but, having said that ... that still does not mean that all of these kinds
of projects are bad ... and lack rigor ... there are many huge data bases
that are created (government ones come to mind) that NEED analysis and,
some dissertation level projects are worthy of exploration of these ... not
all, but some certainly are
>Yes I said that. I did not intend that all dissertations are hack jobs, but
>many are. My frame of reference is a dissertation that is based on
>evaluation of collected data, not a mathematical development or an exercise
>of an alternate view on someone's else's conclusions. It also is a
>dissertation in a non-stat department (chemistry, physics, medical,
>psychological, marketing, economics, social studies, etc.) in which stat is
>used as a tool.
so, by this last sentence i presume that you are claiming that
dissertations that use statistical analysis must be born in departments of
statistics? this makes no sense whatsoever ... you do know of course that
many students outside of stat departments can and do learn a fair bit about
statistics ... enough so as to be able to intelligently apply such tools
... this is like suggesting that unless you are majoring in a business
program ... you should not be able to use a spreadsheet ... say what?
i do agree that far too many who use statistical analysis ... especially
fancy routines ... don't have a clue about what they are doing but, that is
not THEIR fault ... it is directly the fault of the committee who approves
their proposal (and approved their course of study) and let's them hire out
analysis (and interpretation) to some consultant ... now THAT is a crime
... but don't blame the student for this
>You have to remember these points.
>
>1. Go down to the basement of your university library and count the many
>shelves devoted to dissertations and thesis. How many of them ever show up
>as references in papers? How many are important? how many become journal
>articles? How many have good data and have a good result? Just guess the
>proportion that were written just to get the degree.
sure. a large percentage fit your description ... but, again ... put the
blame on committees who approve these things ... AND, let's face it ...
research itself is a highly overrated activity ... and even studies that
are done excellently ... probably add little to our real knowledge base ...
in many fields ...
>2. Look at the approval process. Student writes a dissertation. Approving
>professor usually is time pressed and does not devote enough time to
>guidance. Student has to understand the professor and the subject, and this
>is an evolving situation on a time scale of semesters. Usually the two are
>at different poles when the thing is started. After about 80% is done the
>professor, on the backstretch, suddenly says to the student, you should do
>an ANOVA or a regression or apply the XXX test, which the student has very
>limited knowledge of. By the time that graduation approaches, the time
>crunch is on. It is a race at this time by the student to get something in
>writing that the professor approves of so he/she can graduate. The focus is
>on approval, not "scientific" accomplishment. (I think that peer review as
>it is currently done "stinks". A peer reviewer should be involved in the
>front end, not just at the tail end. Just like with a horse, you avoid being
>close to the tail-end. If you are sticking with the tail end, be prepared.)
again, don't blame the student for this ... it is a highly flawed system
>3. Sit on EDSTAT for several years, and see the constant stream of "help".
>"help"........ I have data and want to do some statistical stuff on it. Give
>me a good stat software package, or "how do I do regression" or how do I do
>an ANOVA, etc. etc. etc. It is always putting the cart before the horse. How
>can I not conclude that the result will be one of those forgotten "hack" job
>dissertations that just collect dust in the basement.
on edstat and other lists ... people are free to ask questions ... it is up
to the members of the list to decide if they want to answer ...
>4. As I said in my message, a good dissertation requires putting the horse
>before the cart, Determining an objective, a hypothesis, a conjecture, a
>proposed relationship, validating/rejecting a proposed causal relationship,
>identifying variables, ranges, significances, probable errors, etc., etc.
>Look at it realistically before you have put a lot of time on it and the
>time crunch is on. The data and arguments should show or prove the
>conclusions without having to rely on whether the p value is 0.044 or 0.052.
>(After R.A. Fisher). You have to start with some physical reality, develop
>some approach, collect some fragmentary preliminary data, (even some
>hypothetical invented data) try out some preliminary stat analysis and see
>where the problems and holes are, including your knowledge and
>understanding. Don't suddenly call for help on regression analysis at the
>last minute. There are just too many ways to do regression.
agreed but, your statements overgeneralize to the hilt
>5. If there is no front end work, the dissertation may be well written, and
>have convincing logic, but it has no foundation. It is an "after the fact"
>job. It is a desperate attempt of recovery.
in some cases ... this is definitely true ... but, in many many cases
... students are good ... they genuinely are interested in the topic they
are pursuing ... they develop skills to handle these projects ... and they
do good work ...
> DAHeiser
>
>P.S. My response tonight was assisted by some "Black Butte Porter" from the
>Deschutes Brewery, Bend Ore. Its really good stuff.
maybe to get you into a better perspective ... you should try yuengling
from pennsylvania ... from america's oldest brewery
==========================================================
Dennis Roberts, EdPsy, Penn State University
208 Cedar Bldg., University Park PA 16802
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], AC 814-863-2401, FAX 814-863-1002
WWW: http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/drober~1.htm
===========================================================================
This list is open to everyone. Occasionally, less thoughtful
people send inappropriate messages. Please DO NOT COMPLAIN TO
THE POSTMASTER about these messages because the postmaster has no
way of controlling them, and excessive complaints will result in
termination of the list.
For information about this list, including information about the
problem of inappropriate messages and information about how to
unsubscribe, please see the web page at
http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/
===========================================================================
