In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Richard Ulrich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On 27 Apr 2004 10:38:41 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Herman
>Rubin) wrote:
>> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>> Brett Magill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>[snip, quite a few lines about schools]
>HR >
>> This was not the case among several immigrant groups. This
>> was not the case for me. BTW, the SCHOOLS performed poorly
>> for me, as essentially all I got out of them was the presentation
>> of the topics, and then I learned on my own. There was opposition
>> to the progress I was allowed in elementary school.
>So, some of the public schools were bad 50-to-60 years ago.
>My schools had a pretty good local reputation, and I feel that
>they were bad, objectively speaking, compared to stated ideals,
>40-to-50 years ago.
................
>BM (I think)>
>> >Further, will vouchers automagically solve the teacher standards problem
>> >that you point out? No, of course not. This is not an issue for the
>> >schools. Instead, this is a problem for the system of higher education
>> >that certifies teachers.
>HR >
>> This is a vicious cycle. The non-public schools would be free
>> to ignore the present certification system, and to hire only
>> those who understood their subjects. It would take a few years
>> for it to become apparent that their students learned much more.
>> It will take decades for an adequate number of competent teachers
>> to be produced, as having gone through the present public schools
>> is already an impediment. It IS that bad.
>This assumes that it would be good to ignore the certification
>system, which, I think, assumes that the schools are not doing
>a good job.
I consider this to be a massive UNDERstatement. They are
doing such a poor job that we need a total change. And a
large part of the problem is that the certification system
requires the exposure to the education courses; one of the
posters to the math news group asked whether those courses
required a lobotomy. The vicious cycle has even infected
the college undergraduate and graduate programs. I have
commented before that the present graduates who supposedly
have the basic upper division mathematics courses in fact
do not understand the basic concepts in those courses; it
is too much calculation, and apparently an inability, at
least on the part of most students, to understand concepts.
.................
>Despite larger test pools, Achievement tests have to be
>re-normed regularly in order to properly represent the median
>achievement at grade levels, since that achievement keeps
>creeping up. Now, I have not been totally happy with what I
>have seen of el-hi achievement questions, but I don't think
>the gain can be blamed on irrelevant factors.
It can. We need people who can understand, not just carry
out the routine calculations best left to machines. It is
the case that mathematicians and those making theoretical
applications might well profit from being able to do those,
but for the practicing engineer, whether or not he can solve
a differential equation is of little importance. Whether or
not he understands the process of differentiation well enough
to know how to formulate one may be very important.
>Against that, there is the complaint in numerous anecdotes
>that students are not prepared for college; and consequently,
>college courses must be watered down. But I don't think
>I have seen a lot of documentation of that 'watering down' part.
Few of the present students understand what a theorem is, let
alone a proof. Nor can they understand an argument by induction;
someone who cannot do this does not understand the positive
integers, regardless of ability to calculate.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
.
.
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