On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 09:22:40 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > -----Original Message----- > From: Joseph M Grib <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >this is > >a 2% business for major gear. > > I've heard this from other sources and I think it's true. Even if > it > were a 10% business that doesn't give a lot of wiggle room. > > >Why do you think that ham dealers across the US have been folding? > >Why do you think there's been a lack of dealer and manufacturer > presence > >at hamfests and shows? > > >It's because it's not profitable to do it. > > Yup. But that's not our fault, is it?
Can't argue with that, but again, a lot of people want/need hand holding which is unfortunately also going by the wayside. The big point I'm trying to make is that no-one in the biz is making a killing at a store. The "big" perceived profit isn't there. I heard that argument constantly when I was working for them and frankly, it just isn't true. > > >Do you work for free? > > The days when most people had 9 to 5 M-F jobs and paid overtime for > > anything > outside those strictly defined limits are pretty much over. How many > > hours do > you think Wayne, Eric and the others have put in on the K3? Tons of hours, and their product shows it. But we're not talking about a design team here, we're talking about a retail merchant. The guy/gal behind the counter answering your questions, giving you advice, assisting you with the sale, and if necessary, service after the sale. Regarding the K3, it's a very impressive piece of equipment I must say from what I've been reading on the 'net. I have a few K1's and a K2 myself. Not for sale any price either. They're great rigs. > > >What you the consumer are paying for is the service behind the sale > and > >the ability to actually see things before you purchase them. > > Agreed. And the products have to be priced to support that. No argument here.... > > >When I was on the other side of the counter, I heard all > >the time how "I can get it cheaper > >by the 1-800-XXX number." Then fine and go use the 800 number but > when > >it's needing > >repairs or you need advice, go call the 800 number and don't come > bother > >me. > > Yup. > > The question is, why do the rigmakers allow their product to be > distributed > that way? Don't they realize that, by doing so, they are killing off > > their > distribution network? Agreed, but like everything else, once a dealer/distributor grasps a means of selling something be it the net or a '800' number the others must follow or see their sales greatly diminish. Unfortunately though, there are still a lot of people who flock to shows and dealerships to 'see' and 'touch' a piece of equipment before they buy. Why do you think consumer electronic shows are so busy? Why do you think car shows are so busy? People may look endlessly for a great price, but at some time they want to actually see the product they're buying before they take delivery. I don't care if it's a camera or a Corvette. People will want to see it and touch it if possible before they buy, even if that purchase is months or years down the pike. They'll buy magazines (QST) for reviews of equipment and compare endlessly the specifications of one piece of gear to another before they buy. They'll ask questions and get opinions on reliability and ease of use. Let me tell you, you're not going to get that from a shopping cart on a webpage or a 800 number order taker. Your local dealer is going to try to keep you, the customer happy. If there's a known problem with a rig, a respectable dealer will tell you up front. If you're making a mistake a respectable dealer will tell you and try to help. If you're not sure what antennas to raise or what to buy, a dealer will try to help you. If you have a issue with a radio, a dealer will try to help you with the problem to keep your business. A dealer will try to have knowledgeable salespeople working for him/her to assist customers. Anyone can take an order over the phone and punch it into a computer, but a salesperson who genuinely wants to help his customer will take the time to assist in the sale and necessary accessories, not just be expected to ring you up like the cashier at a WalMart. > > >You don't walk into your local grocery > >store and argue > >with the checkout clerk how cheap you can get milk somewhere else > do > you? > > >Then why do you do it at a ham store? > > But when you go to buy a car, haggling over the price is often part > of > the deal - > even a new car that's in demand. Same for when you buy real estate. > Why > is it > OK to haggle for those things but not a ham rig that costs hundreds > or > nds > of dollars? Can't answer that, but there is a point where a car dealer will no longer 'haggle' with you or anyone else because that point of profit is built into the sale and no matter what you do, or try to do, they won't reduce the price any further. The markup on a car is a lot more than any ham rig I believe. I'll also guarantee you that the average major car dealership are selling a lot more cars per month than the ham market sells big rigs as a whole, otherwise they won't be in business very long. Cars are also a important part of life, in most areas of the country a car is a necessity, not a luxury like a ham rig is. Let's be honest, in most cases average people need a reliable car to get to work and will sacrifice to have a well running car. Ham rigs like a lot of other luxuries in life are purchased with discretionary money, that is money that you have to purchase a item of personal nature for yourself, like a golfer would purchase a set of clubs or a hunter a new gun. Few people in life need a ham rig to survive (though I've seen a few that have made me wonder at times!!) > > One thing that has kept me homebrewing and Elecrafting for many > years > is the > ads in ham magazines that show a rig but don't show a price. Sorry, > but > how > much it costs is an important specification! Yep I agree with you 100% there... > > >Sure there's tons of places to get stuff on the internet and I'm > sure a > >lot cheaper, but if the ham > >community wants ham stores to be around and not everything to be > either > a > >800 number or on > >the internet, then you will have to support your local store and > local > >dealers, or they'll disappear. > > Or perhaps times have changed... > > For a very long time, Heathkit was only available by mail order. The > > price of a > Heathkit was what it said in the catalog and in the magazine ads. > > Unless you > lived in MI you didn't pay sales tax but you did pay shipping. Heath > > eventually > opened retail stores, but they didn't last too long. True, True... I remember many a night looking at the Heath catalog.... But why did Heath go out of business? Was it because people didn't want to build any more? Was it because people found Japanese equipment be it TV's or stereo's a lot cheaper and ready to go out of the box? Was it their equipment didn't have all the features of the latest item on the shelf at the local store? Or a combination of all the above? Same reasons today, there's a percentage of the ham population that will build a radio, and a even smaller percentage that will consistently build, and I'll bet even a smaller amount of people that will completely homebrew something that they have to search for parts for. Most people either don't have the time or desire to build from scratch and if they do, no matter how badly they screw it up, they expect the item to work the first time, or they expect the kit maker or someone else to fix their problem. Why do you think guys had a small business of assembling K2's? I saw the book and the instructions are pretty clear, and straightforward. Some people want the rig, but not the work that goes into building or making it. They want to buy a finished product, not a kit and am willing to pay someone else to pick up parts and solder it together. > > Ten Tec is only available factory-direct. The prices are clearly > shown > and the > same for everybody. Service is reportedly excellent. I understand > that > once > upon a time TT was available through dealers, but that ended years > ago. Also true.... I really do like my Ten Tec gear. I've bought and sold a lot of rigs over the years but my Ten Tec's aren't for sale. Again, as you stated, the price is the same for everybody. Why should it be any different at a ham store? I've seen sales made and lost for major pieces of gear for amounts as little as $10. The thing I found most amusing was when we got a call and looked up the price of tax, and shipping the buyer was going to end up paying from the other dealer. In a lot of cases (unless we had a store in your state and they charged sales tax) we picked up shipping and didn't charge tax, and you still got the rig cheaper in the end than the discount guys were selling it to you. But people only see the 'price' of the rig, not the 'final price' on the invoice when everything was said and done. I'll tell you one of the best experiences I had with buying a car was to buy a Saturn. Same price for everyone, no haggling, no 'better deal'. The price, was the price, period. I bought 5 of them and was very happy with all of them. I'd be driving one now if they made a pickup truck and a bit bigger (size wise) car. I flipped one mid air and rolled it and my wife and I escaped with no bruises or injuries. My Vue was a great car I must say. > > And of course Elecraft offers excellent service and advice, spare > parts > and > direct advice from all levels of the company. > > This isn't just happening with ham rigs. Want parts? There's > Digi-Key > (guess where > the name comes from?) Mouser, Dan's Small Parts and many others. > Wire > and > cable? The Wireman and many others. > > Last time I needed to fix an appliance (old Maytag D8300 dryer - > yes, > even Maytags > break) I got the parts online. Ordered Saturday, at my door > Tuesday. No argument here, but a question.... Where did you buy the dryer? I agree though a dryer is a lot bigger and more of a pain to purchase over the mail than a ham rig would be, but the point I'm making is that you went somewhere local, agreed on a model, and either brought it home yourself or had it delivered from a local merchant. If your dryer broke during it's warranty period, your merchant was expected to provide (or at least assist you) with service for that unit. I agree also that we're looking at an 'apples and oranges' item here because no-one (or very few of us) would buy a dryer over the internet or via an 800 number, but my argument of service still is the same, you buy locally and expect to receive service from the local dealer for that item, and yeah, I had a few Maytag items break too, but I do admit I got a lot of years out of them before they did!! > > A big part of what makes these things possible are: > > - email and the internet > - modern ham gear is smaller, lighter and more reliable than the old > > stuff > - there are many shipping options, and with the smaller/lighter ham > rigs > the cost is not *too* bad. > > Perhaps the day of the distributor is ending, and > factory-direct/internet sales > is the new paradigm for a lot of things. Maybe that's true Jim, and I'm all for cheaper, well built gear like the next guy. My point is that if you want something besides a 800 number to call or a mouse click, then people have to understand part of having a storefront is the cost of doing business. That cost includes the ability of the customer to actually see, touch, ask questions and turn the knobs before they purchase, and that ability costs money. If you're comfortable buying something for several thousand dollars off a webpage then great. But I'll tell you, from my experience, there are still a lot of guys out there that want to turn the knobs a bit before they pull out their wallet. Even if the purchase is made later using a 800 number or the net' later on, they'll travel to a show or store (even hours away) to see the item before they buy it. 73, Joe KI3B > > 73 de Jim, N2EY > ________________________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL > Mail! - > http://mail.aol.com > > _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [email protected] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
