I'm always fascinated by those which use of a 4:1 balun when 450 ohm line is used. In most all cases, the 450 ohm line is operated at a known high SWR. The nature of 450 ohm line {or other line such as 300 ohm or 600 ohm, etc.} is that it exhibits much lower loss when operated at a high SWR as compared to coax under the same conditions. The point...... we are not matching the feed-line impedance. Even if we desired to match the feed line, it would need to be terminated into a 450 load. Even then with a 4:1 balun we would have a ~2.25:1 SWR best case at the source. [450/4=112.5/50=2.25]

The feed-line basically reflects the impedance of the antenna from the feed point to the source. Although at certain electrical lengths of line it can serve as a 1/4 wave transformer thus transforming the antenna impedance to another value, we typically find that a 1:1 current balun is better suited for the application when working between a balanced line/load and a tuner.

So where does a 4:1 balun become useful? In general, any place the feed point of the antenna presents a 200 ohm load. Example: a resonant folded dipole that is less than 1/2 wavelength above the surface of the earth is typical. In this example, a 4:1 balun at a 200 ohm load will present a 50 ohm load to the source. [200/4=50]

Just remember that most tuners have their greatest loss when the load Z is less than 50 ohms. Many tuners being required to match loads in the 5 to 10 ohm range can have as much as 50% to 75% power loss. This manifests into heat dissipated in the tuner components and watts of RF which does not get to the antenna.

The typical use of a 4:1 balun transformer action will divide the load by a factor of 4. Of course one can use a 1:4 balun, in other words, turn it around to gain some advantage in the impedance matching game. Just be sure the balun can handle the voltages involved. This is a point for another long discussion.

73
Bob, K4TAX



On 1/12/2016 10:58 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

On 1/12/2016 10:57 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
> If your tuner uses disk ceramic caps, as many do, these can be
> heating thus not being able to handle the RF current.  They heat
> and cool and change value which in turn changes tuning.

Particularly if you are using a 4:1 balun!  On 40 meters the impedance
of the half size antenna is *very low*.  The 4:1 balun will further
decrease the impedance seen by the tuner causing it to work at its
absolute worst efficiency (highest circulating current).

At the very least see if you can extend the dipole to 44', then get
some Smith Chart software and see if you can find a compromise
feedline length that provides a reasonable impedance on all bands,
and finally replace the 4:1 balun with a high quality 1:1 current
balun.

By extending the dipole you should be able to find a compromise
feedline length that will provide a 100 - 300 Ohm impedance on
all bands - something the tuner will be much happier to with and
be far more efficient than working at best than 10 Ohms as it
probably is doing on 40 meters.

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV


On 1/12/2016 10:57 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
If your tuner uses disk ceramic caps, as many do, these can be heating thus not being able to handle the RF current. They heat and cool and change value which in turn changes tuning.

Replacing them with suitable RF current rated units is the solution.

Bob, K4TAX


Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 12, 2016, at 5:27 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi Vic,

Your story does suggest trouble at very high current points. Just a list of things below I've heard or seen to stir up a new idea or two. No opinion on
which if any makes any sense in your situation.

---------

Insect nests in tubular spacers on open wire.

Spacers have carbon tracks.

Material inside the balun housing is much hotter than touchable material.

Stranded wire in open wire has been waterlogged, corroded and the remaining
conductor material at a current max along the line is heating up.

Wire inside insulation is nearly all broken, or is broken, and contact is
miscellaneous and highly resistive.

Insulation on the wire is significantly compromised by ultra violet or
critter nibbling, letting in water to the stranded conductor. Advice, has been to use bare solid #12 copper or larger for open wire that is carrying
large standing waves, to handle the current maximums.

Check heat all around the entire core. I have burned up some number of
cores before I understood the materials and engineering. On one all the
damage was on a spot that comprised only 15 degrees of the circumference.

Electrical connections in aluminum elements made of telescoping tubing go
highly resistive as water is boiled out of the joints.

Connections made of dissimilar metals/materials go bad and become more
resistive as water is boiled out of the joint.

Tuner rotary switches going bad.

The rolling contact on on a variable coil losing its tension (numerous ways for this to happen depending on construction), contact is very small and becomes worse as it heats up. Fixed by repairing mechanism for maintaining
contact.

Parted conductors at conductor joints due to metal erosion at the contact
point.

--------

Your troubles would have me taking down the dipole, rebuilding it with all mating surfaces wire-brushed and reassembled with clear silicone dielectric
grease, completely new hardware likewise treated, with all balanced
conductors replaced new, using bare solid #12 outdoors, and brand new runs
indoors. Old wire to recycling.

Hope this has kicked off a new idea for you. 73 and good luck. Guy K2AV

On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 4:24 PM, Vic Rosenthal 4X6GP/K2VCO <
[email protected]> wrote:

I'm having a problem which has me stumped. I'm going to describe my
complete antenna and feed system because something in it is misbehaving and
I don't know what!

My system works on all bands from 40 to 10 (or it should).

The antenna is a full-size 20m rotary dipole. It is all aluminum tubing, no traps or stubs. Just a dipole. I am feeding it with about 30 feet of
"true ladder line," which is open wire line made of #16 insulated wire
spaced about 3-1/4" with black PVC spacers every 18" or so, except near the
antenna and the rotor where I've added extra ones so that the spacing
doesn't change when the antenna rotates.

The line comes into the shack and is connected to a static drain, which is a box with two 10-megohm high voltage resistors to ground and a couple of spark gaps. Then a piece of 450-ohm window line about 3 feet long connects it to a pair of large air variable capacitors in series with each leg which knock out some of the reactance on 40m to make it possible to tune more easily. Then a very short piece of window line connects to a big 5kW DX Engineering 4:1 balun, spec'ed for tuner service, and finally via a piece
of RG-213 18" long, to a T-network tuner.

My K3 drives a TL922 amp and I have an SWR meter in line.

Now here is my problem: it works OK on all bands except 40 meters. On 40,
it tunes up fine with low power, but when I run more than a couple of
hundred watts, after perhaps 10 seconds of key-down, the SWR starts to
climb. I have watched it go to 4:1 before I stop sending for fear of
destroying something.

The SWR rises both on the meter in the tuner and the extra one I have in
line.

Classic symptoms of something heating up. But what?

- The tuner components are all cold.
- The coax to the balun and its connectors are cold.
- The balun itself is just barely perceptibly warmer (I have to touch the
core to tell).
- The window line, the static drain resistors, the air capacitors and all
the connections in the shack are cold.

I know the SWR is astronomical on 40 meters, so currents and voltages are high. But nothing in the shack seems to be heating up. Any more ideas of
where to look?

--
73,
Vic, 4X6GP/K2VCO
Rehovot, Israel
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
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