Mike's words are tempting, but James makes more sense.
I only argue against IRV based on the added difficulty of selling Condorcet where users have just gone thru a switch to IRV. ASSUMING we worked hard enough to be successful in getting significant use of Condorcet, we should not be concerned if IRV also got significant use - the visibility should attend to killing IRV once it had declared a few undeserved winners.
A reminder - IRV usually does pretty well:
Both use identical ballots.
They usually agree as to winner - it takes MORE THAN two strong candidates to provide ammunition for disagreement - each has no trouble discarding the real lemons.
When arguing against Approval, ranking helps:
Just rank in order - something the voter must do the basics of in Plurality, and less headaches than deciding whether to Approve.
With Condorcet, equal ranking can be permissible when the voter desires - though harder to support in IRV.
So, we come back to WV vs Margins - seems like WV needs to win decisively.
On Mon, 02 May 2005 08:32:07 -0400 James Green-Armytage wrote:
Mike, you wrote:
Condorcetists and Approvalists can and will sink IRV anywhere where they have the opportunity and the time to
tell the people what IRV is like.
and:
Really, we should have an organization dedicated to finding out about
each IRV proposal in the U.S., or anywhere, and taking turns writing to the decisionmakers involved in the choice, or getting our information
published in newspaper letters or ballot-pamphlets there, attending forums, etc. We could fairly divide the time and labor of doing that work. I can't do it alone.
Rather than spending your effort just on opposing IRV, as long as you're
getting organized and active, why not propose WV as a counterproposal
wherever IRV is being proposed? Or better yet, why not just spend your organizing effort proposing WV in
some district where you think that it is winnable, whether IRV is being
proposed there or not?
If IRV is used in some places, and WV is used in others, and approval is
used in some others... and there is evidence that WV and/or approval is
having more of a positive impact than IRV, don't you think that this would
be the best argument in favor of WV or approval, better than any argument
we can make based on theory alone?
In the US, different areas have a lot of independence in choosing their
voting systems. I don't see why different areas shouldn't try different
methods. Hence, at this time when most places still use plurality and
runoffs, the interaction between IRV and Condorcet isn't zero sum. (Less
IRV implementation doesn't necessarily mean more Condorcet implementation,
and vice versa.)
In short, if your goal is WV implementation, I think that you should
focus on WV implementation, rather than IRV opposition. Same if your goal
is approval implementation or CR implementation.
Sincerely, James
-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] people.clarityconnect.com/webpages3/davek Dave Ketchum 108 Halstead Ave, Owego, NY 13827-1708 607-687-5026 Do to no one what you would not want done to you. If you want peace, work for justice.
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