On Jul 30, 2007, at 2:08 , [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: >> Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 14:17:29 -0400 >> From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Subject: Re: [Election-Methods] [EM] RV comments > >> By limiting ourselves to "competitive elections," we are limiting >> ourselves, actually, to dysfunctional societies. We need to know >> that. >> >> And there is a conclusion we can make. If we care about improving the >> function of society, we should worry that an election method that >> works beautifully in a dysfunctional society might actually inhibit a >> return to function. If the election method encourages polarization >> and competition, it may prevent the society from healing. > > Nice point, but I'm afraid that moving society to be functional is > too much to > hope for. > > Selfishness leading to socially suboptimal results is pervasive. > The famous > "tragedy of the commons" happens at all scales, from village > commons to fishing > stocks to global warming. Anecdotally, small communities seem to > often keep > selfishness under control, but big communities have a much harder > time at it. > Does anyone know of any societies of more than a million people > that are > functional in this sense?
This is interesting and relevant. But the definition is still so flexible that I'm unable to give examples on any combination of big/ small, selfish/non-selfish. Some interesting factors are "facelessness", ability to relate to", "ability to understand", "ability to influence, "trust on the society's functionality", "personal links" etc. A well organized society (in many senses) may be able to push the numeric population threshold higher (= from families to villages and tribes and states). > >> Essentially, trying to maximize my personal gain in a Range election >> by voting Approval style is short-sighted. If everyone does it, >> everyone loses, on average. > > I agree with that statement. > > If a *random* subset of voters choose to vote strategically, I > agree that range > is better than approval. What scares me about range is what happens > if there's > a correlation between what people's opinions about the candidates > and their > sincerity. What happens if functional and cooperative people vote > sincerely > while dysfunctional and selfish people vote strategically? The > result would be > society run by the most competitive people! I see several problems > with this: > > 1) I think that if we had a choice we'd give extra power to > cooperative people > and less power to selfish people. But range does the opposite, > giving less > power to the people who have society's long-term interests at heart! > > 2) Suppose the country is polarized about some issue and one side > does a better > job of convincing its voters to vote strategically and therefore > wins. The other > side will naturally be tempted to do more polarizing rhetoric next > time, thereby > encouraging more strategic votes. So I think that by forcing people > to *act* in > a polarized fashion (approval), you ironically reduce the need for > polarizing > rhetoric! > > Summary: I believe it's better to force everyone to vote strategically > (approval) than to give power to the candidate whose supporters > have the most > black and white, polarized view of the world. > > ---- > > General comment to everyone: remember that it is possible to > conduct a poll > using a method that is different from the one used on election day. > So a range > or Condorcet method can be used in a poll to guide approval towards > a good > equilibrium. I agree very much with the the mail. Here's one question though. Does this last paragraph intend to say that Approval would be more usable than Condorcet in real elections? Juho > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > ---- > Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for > list info ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - with free PC-PC calling and photo sharing. http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ---- Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
