On May 19, 2010, at 2:04 PM, Juho wrote:

> - Maybe there is no need to defend proportional representation. Proportional 
> representation should in principle be taken as granted since that is the way 
> the whole country operates.

It's worth keeping in mind that a majority faction has a built-in incentive to 
prefer majority-take-all to PR (and this has played a role in the repeal of PR 
in some places--eg New York City). Depending on the culture of the overall 
group, it may be impolite to put this reason on the table, but surely it must 
influence opinion.

> 
> - One approach to this question is to say that the already used method is 
> already a serious attempt to implement proportional representation but that 
> it is not good enough and does not meet the standards that are generally used 
> in proportional systems.
> 
> - I think practically all political systems have a representative body that 
> is in some sense proportional. Governments may be majoritarian but usually 
> governments are not the only representative bodies.
> 
> - It very common that the largest groupings (that currently have the power) 
> don't want to distribute power any more than they have to, in any political 
> system. But maybe also they agree that reasonable level of proportionality is 
> what the party wants. And then the question is if the current method is bad 
> enough to be upgraded.
> 
> - You mentioned that some people might leave the party. They could also well 
> establish a competing party. Since your party is small it can not afford 
> fragmentation. A better strategy would be to collect all the similar minded 
> people from all greenish segments of the society together and that way gain 
> more weight. This means that all segments need to be respected and be 
> represented.

This is a possible counterargument to the majority-take-all argument 
above--possible the best one.

> 
> - You mentioned earlier that the first vice president should come from a 
> different grouping than the president. If people agree with this, then they 
> should agree that similar principles should apply also to the rest of the 
> council.

As a historical note, the US Constitution originally had a rather convoluted 
scheme for electing the president and VP (even more convoluted than the present 
scheme, that is). The fact that it could (and did, in 1796) result in the P & 
VP being from opposing parties was one of the reasons for the 12th amendment 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution>.

> 
> - If the members will decide, then they may like the fact that proportional 
> representation means that higher number of them will have some of their 
> favourites in the council.
> 
> - You could also explain why the current system does not work. (But be 
> constructive and not destructive.:-)
> 
> - The first practical example in my mind is one where in a good council all 
> the imagined groupings will have their representative in the council while in 
> a bad council, that could be elected with the current method, things would 
> not look as rosy.
> 
> - A working demo may also interest some people. Maybe better focus on some 
> imaginary situation first and not directly on how the new method would change 
> the current leadership to something better :-).


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