In my long participation at EM, and other voting-system forums, and other forums on various other topics, I've encountered many time, all of the dishonest debate tactics. Jameson hasn't invented a new one, but he's taken angry, hypocritical injured innocence to a new extreme.
The re-use and re-cycling of already-answered arguments, without answering the answers, is of course probably the most common dishonest tactic at EM. People don't always _consciously_ use dishonest tactics. But sometimes people are being dishonest with themselves, and the tactics are subconsciously tempting. The best way to comment is to quote the most recent posts: 2013/1/16 Michael Ossipoff <email9648742 at gmail.com> > 2013/1/14 Michael Ossipoff <email9648742 at gmail.com> > > > 2013/1/14 Michael Ossipoff <email9648742 at gmail.com> > > > > > > IRV will be the next voting system, and that's very much ok. > > > > > > > > Michael's statement above is based on the idea that voting reform will > > happen through a third party gaining majority power. I believe that this > > is, frankly, a pipe dream. Well, I'd said that IRV would be the next voting system, and I'd been saying that the Greens would win if people read the platforms and voted in their own best interest. I never made the prediction that that would happen. I'd been clear about that. Jameson wouldn't put words in my mouth, would he? :-) This is an example of why I used, above, the word "hypocritical". > > > > [endquote] > > > > Jameson thinks that the Democrat-Republican two-party system > > represents the will of the people. > > > > I've addressed that matter previously, and if Jameson still holds that > > belief, it would be pointless to say any more to him about it. > > > > Jameson says: > > I would really, really appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. So touchy, so sensitive, so easily-offended, so primadonna. I was trying to get at what Jameson meant, and I was taking a good guess. Sometimes a guess is all that's possible. If someone believes that the election of a Green government is a "pipe-dream", then doesn't that imply that the person also believes that the Democrat-Republican two-party system represents the will of the people? If it isn't, then the election of a non-Republocrat government is likely, under honest voting. Or did Jameson mean that honest voting is a pipe-dream. Who knows? In any case, if the speaker doesn't say what he means, then he really has no reason to complain if someone guesses. > I > emphatically do not believe that, and in fact if you're going to continue > to mischaracterize me like that Translation: "...if you're going to continue to try to guess what I mean." , after I've previously asked you not to, I > see no reason to continue to read your argument here. > > [endquote] > > Translation: You don't have an answer to it. > As I said, repeating and re-using already-answered arguments and claims has always been a common tactic at EM. I've specifically told you that I voted against Obama; you assume for me that I voted for him. [endquote] No, I never made that statement after you told me that you voted against him. But, in previous discussions, you argued that progressives should vote Democrat, because only a Democrat or a Republican can win. No, I'm not putting words in your mouth. You were saying that. With you having said that, how unfair is it for someone to assume that you voted for Obama, after you'd been advocating that kind of voting? The word "hypocritical" suggests itself again. Jameson said: I have on several occasions spoken about norms of debate, including not putting words in people's mouths [endquote] See above. As for "norms of debate", I've been around these debates a lot, and re-use of arguments and claims that have already been answered has always been common here. At EM it would be impractical to have a "norm of debate" that says you can't point out lilkely instances of the common dishonest tactics, or try to guess what someone means,when he hasn't clearly said what he means. Jameson has certainly, more than once, made use of the "re-use without answeringn" tactic. In the recent discussion of MJ, ---- Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
