> There are couple solutions to this problem. One is sending itself a
message from init/1, which is error prone, because we have no
guarantees that this will be the first message received by the
process.

What are the instances when a message can arrive before one sent from
init/1?

On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 5:06 PM, Peter Hamilton <[email protected]>
wrote:

> One nitpick. Merge arg and state in the return in init. Having them
> separate is confusing. Delayed init takes one parameter and returns a new
> state. What happens to the originally returned state?
>
> On Sun, May 15, 2016, 7:23 AM James Fish <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I think the larger problem being tackled here is that current OTP
>> behaviours require the callbacks to be purely message based and do not make
>> it easy to dispatch internal events. Have you looked at :gen_statem in OTP
>> 19 rc1? I think it solves this problem quite well, or at least I have not
>> seen something I think is better. Once OTP 19 lands I'll release
>> :gen_connection which is :connection but using a :gen_statem instead of a
>> :gen_server. It simplifies the code enormously and works better with OTPs
>> logging and debugging features. It might be that you want to propose
>> including GenStatem instead of a delayed init.
>>
>> On 15 May 2016 at 15:20, Michał Muskała <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, diverging from Erlang's gen_server is an issue, but we're already
>>> doing that, albeit on a smaller scale. On the other hand this change
>>> is purely extensible - if not used, it does not affect your code in
>>> any way.
>>>
>>> As with most such things synchronous vs asynchronous initialization is
>>> a tradeoff, I'd say it should be easily possible for the developers to
>>> choose which guarantees interest them. Right now one is extremely easy
>>> to achieve, and the other is rather complicated. I agree, though, that
>>> synchronous initialization is a better choice in most circumstances,
>>> but when you need async, well - you need it ;)
>>> Another case for async initialization is that the synchronous one is
>>> happening one process at a time. In case you have a lot of processes
>>> that all need to load some state from database doing it concurrently
>>> should be a huge improvement in the startup time. The guarantee of the
>>> supervision tree is decreased only slightly if you have a process that
>>> checks for the availability of the connection earlier in the
>>> supervision tree.
>>>
>>> Doing this as a separate library was my initial idea, until I tried to
>>> find a name and couldn't come up with anything satisfying other than
>>> just "GenServer". At that point I decided to write this proposal
>>> first, but doing it as a library is still something I'm considering.
>>> Writing a proposal was also a way to gather opinions on usefulness of
>>> such a library.
>>>
>>> 2016-05-15 15:34 GMT+02:00 Andrea Leopardi <[email protected]>:
>>> > I'm not sure about this. It would make Elixir's GenServer different
>>> from
>>> > Erlang's gen_server, and I'm not sure that's ok. I agree that it's
>>> nasty to
>>> > do this correctly, but it's still very possible.
>>> > Also, I would say that if you depend on said database
>>> resources/expensive
>>> > initialization for your application to function properly, than I think
>>> it's
>>> > ok to have a long initialization. Section 2.2 in chapter 2 of Erlang in
>>> > Anger has a very interesting discussion about this.
>>> >
>>> > Maybe this is more suited to an external library (similar to (gen
>>> > :P)connection)?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Sunday, May 15, 2016 at 2:45:27 PM UTC+2, Michał Muskała wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Hello everybody,
>>> >>
>>> >> Today GenServer (and all stdlib behaviours) are initialized
>>> >> synchronously - only after init/1 returns the start_link function will
>>> >> return. But in many places the initialization may be expensive or is
>>> >> not essential to the GenServer's operation and can be, at least
>>> >> partially, delayed.
>>> >>
>>> >> There are couple solutions to this problem. One is sending itself a
>>> >> message from init/1, which is error prone, because we have no
>>> >> guarantees that this will be the first message received by the
>>> >> process. The other one is to use :proc_lib or :gen directly, similar
>>> >> to how it's used in the connection library
>>> >>
>>> https://github.com/fishcakez/connection/blob/master/lib/connection.ex#L595
>>> >> - this solution is correct, but very complicated and requires advanced
>>> >> knowledge of OTP internals.
>>> >>
>>> >> I'd like to propose adding another callback to GenServer called
>>> >> delayed_init/1. that would be called if a new tuple {:delayed_init,
>>> >> arg, state} is returned from init/1. The callback would be called
>>> >> after  start_link returned, but before any message is processed by the
>>> >> server.
>>> >> The delayed_init/1 would support returning:
>>> >> {:ok, state} - for entering normal GenServer loop
>>> >> {:ok, state, timeout | :hibernate} - similar to init/1
>>> >> {:stop, reason, state} - similar to the return value of call/3 and
>>> cast/2
>>> >>
>>> >> This would allow to deal with the problem easily from application code
>>> >> and simplify libraries such as connection significantly, removing all
>>> >> the OTP plumbing code.
>>> >>
>>> >> Example use cases include - opening sockets or ports, loading some
>>> >> state from external resources like databases or doing some expensive
>>> >> initialization that we know usually succeeds and that should not block
>>> >> starting the supervision tree, awaiting the start of other parts of
>>> >> the supervision tree or other applications before processing messages.
>>> >>
>>> >> What do you think about that?
>>> >>
>>> >> Michał.
>>> >
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-- 
Eric Meadows-Jönsson

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