Here Kevin The difference is between
EN 50130-4 for components of .... EN 54 ... for systems as a whole The latter deals with requirements of reliability and safety for the whole installation the earlier deals with protection of the frequency spectrum (EMC directive) and functional immunity. It would have been very nice if the two were made up from the same test suite with different criteria. They aren't, partially because different people made it, partially because systems are much larger and don't fit into the 130-4 suite, and partially because the requirements are different. There is also difference in enforcement of the two and in compliance routes (as you probably noted). Regards, Gert Gremmen Ing. == Ce-test, Qualified testing == Consultants in EMC, Electrical safety and Telecommunication Compliance tests for European standards and ce-marking Member of NEC/IEC voting committee for EMC. Our Web presence: http://www.cetest.nl List of current harmonized standards http://www.cetest.nl/emc-harm.htm -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Kevin Harris Sent: woensdag 10 november 1999 18:16 To: EMC-PSTC (E-mail) Subject: RE: European Standards in conflict with the EMC directive Hello All, Well judging by the responses I worded my question poorly. I was trying to avoid specifics because I felt the general case would be more of interest to the group at large. So let me restate the problem. Generically 1. There is a EMC family product specification for a product published in the OJ as a method of showing compliance to the EMC directive. 2. There is a CENELEC document which is published as a EN which is not part of any new approach directive. It contains (among a lot of other things) EMC testing clauses. 3. CENELEC regulations require national standard organisations to implement European standards 4.The EMC directive requires member countries to adopt standards published in the OJ for that directive 5.Both CENELEC and the EMC directive require conflicting standards to be withdrawn. 6.The EMC product family standard and the CENELEC standard have EMC tests and test methods which are at odds with each other. They therefor are conflicting standards. In my case specifically, 1.The products are fire systems or components of fire systems 2. The EMC family product spec is EN50130-4 3. The CENELEC document is EN54 (In several parts) which is a performance standard for Fire detection systems So my question would be Is there an established procedure for making requests that these groups harmonise and follow their own regulations? Does one complain to CENELEC, the European Commission or both or someone else entirely? Jon Curtis mentioned in his reply that he thought "attempting to change the way CENELEC does business is futile". but I think that still I must try for several reasons. 1. This double testing costs large companies like ourselves tens of thousands of dollars in added testing cost per year for no particular good reason. 2. When it gets down to it, CENELEC actually is responsible for the EMC document EN 50130-4 as well as the fire standard EN54. If we accept that groups within the same standards organisation can't harmonise where does that leave us on global standardisation. BTW For those who think I'm advocating less stringent tests or missing certain tests that is not my intent. EN50130-4 call out a much more comprehensive test suite than EN54 and it uses test methods that are newer than EN54. Best Regards, Kevin Harris Manager, Approval Services Digital Security Controls 3301 Langstaff Road Concord, Ontario CANADA L4K 4L2 Tel +1 905 760 3000 Ext. 2378 Fax +1 905 760 3020 -----Original Message----- From: Grant, Tania (Tania) [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 9:42 PM To: EMC-PSTC (E-mail); 'Kevin Harris' Subject: RE: European Standards in conflict with the EMC directive Kevin, I cannot believe that we are all cowards here. However, it may be that we are unfamiliar with your subject matter. I, for one, have never heard of the EMC standard EN50130-4, don't know if it falls under the new approach EMC Directive or not, and don't know what other EN standards it may be in conflict with. In other words, I cannot shed light on your subject. I would not be surprised if many have the same problem. It might help if you get a bit more specific here, such as, what are the conflicting EN standards, and what are the specific conflicting clauses. Tania Grant, [email protected] <[email protected]> Lucent Technologies, Communications Applications Group ---------- From: Kevin Harris [SMTP:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 3:01 PM To: EMC-PSTC (E-mail) Subject: RE: European Standards in conflict with the EMC directive Hello Again Group, Well the group's total silence on this point is indeed interesting. Does nobody know how to proceed or is everyone just keeping their corporate heads down :)))) Please reply offline if you feel uneasy answering this question in a public forum. Regards Kevin Harris -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Harris [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, November 08, 1999 10:38 AM To: EMC-PSTC (E-mail) Subject: European Standards in conflict with the EMC directive Greetings, Is there an established procedure for demanding the withdrawal of EMC clauses within standards who's primary purpose is industry regulation, not EMC. In my company's industry there is an established product family standard for EMC (EN50130-4) but the good people at CENELEC seem to be ignoring the EMC directive, and have published within the last year or two, EN standards which include EMC testing clauses, with methods that are at odds with the EMC document EN50130-4 published in the OJ. Especially troubling to me is the fact that all of the test organisations that test for the industry regulation specification do not accept either third party or self declarations that the product is EMC compliant. I do not wish to test the same product more than once for a single market. What path do you recommend I follow to demand the repeal of these clauses. Best Regards, Kevin Harris Manager, Approval Services Digital Security Controls 3301 Langstaff Road Concord, Ontario CANADA L4K 4L2 Tel +1 905 760 3000 Ext. 2378 Fax +1 905 760 3020 - --------- This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. 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